Morally, should the Germans bail out Europe?

[beorhthelm]

given the context, not at all. the Germans took the Marshall plan money and bulit a sound economy. the Greeks have been doing the equivilent of tapping dads credit card with no real means to pay it back.

politically, they shouldnt either, they should have the courage of their convictions and enforce the rules around the Euro. problem is, no mechanism was built in to actually provide punishment or consequence for fiscal recklessness. that was probably down to the Germans being so damn sure it wouldnt be needed and the politicians in general not wanting to allow anyone any excuse to quietly leave. so they are stuck with it.

 

[User removed 4]

Good Friday binfest potential this. Come Bushy and Keaton - up your games; work is getting boring.

It's too nice a day to be honest CaM.

 

[User removed 4]

given the context, not at all. the Germans took the Marshall plan money and bulit a sound economy. the Greeks have been doing the equivilent of tapping dads credit card with no real means to pay it back.

politically, they shouldnt either, they should have the courage of their convictions and enforce the rules around the Euro. problem is, no mechanism was built in to actually provide punishment or consequence for fiscal recklessness. that was probably down to the Germans being so damn sure it wouldnt be needed and the politicians in general not wanting to allow anyone any excuse to quietly leave. so they are stuck with it.

Originally there were sanctions built into the euro, for an excessive debt to gdp ratio, but believe it or not it was the germans and french who originally fell foul of them , so i think they were quietly scrapped.

 

[Meade's Ball]

I remember the impact David Hassellhoof had on an united Germany all those years ago. Surely, with that power in mind the Germans should offer over another of their musical masterpieces to bring hope into the hearts of the povertous Greeks. Perhaps they could get another out of work but slightly less alcoholic Baywatch star like Billy Warlock whose tiny form must have spent a large amount of time clambering over Erika Eleniak's mountainous mounds to send over. He looked a bit Greek and would be desperate for work i am sure. Ok maybe people wouldn't recognise without a concentrated rerun of Baywatch series 1-3, but that would be manageable. He could get into shape, the Warlock, and do some voice-coaching and plan an amazing video of him on the beach, the beach of opportunity and freedom which will muster in Greeks the romantic nature of efficacious fiscality in a troublesome world. We Can Make It, it will be called, and there'll be a dream scene or two of Warlock marrying about 13 different women of equal shape and size (apart from a giant mulleted German "woman" as it's important to remember who gets things sorted), each representing a different European state.

 

[Pavilionaire]

The Germans have a word for the collective German guilt over the initiation of WW2 and the Holocaust - Kollektivschuld.

66 years might seem a long time to us Brits but when a country initiated such death and destruction on a global scale is 66 years really that long, especially when c 10% of their population can clearly remember those times.

 

[Southern Toon]

Given that for the last 54 years the Franco/German alliance has been at the forefront of forming the European union, Political & Monetary union was there baby. They f***ed up they have a duty to sort it out.

 

[sten_super]

The Germans have a word for the collective German guilt over the initiation of WW2 and the Holocaust - Kollektivschuld.

66 years might seem a long time to us Brits but when a country initiated such death and destruction on a global scale is 66 years really that long, especially when c 10% of their population can clearly remember those times.

But again, Pav, you are ignoring the real reason that Merkel is backing bailout after bailout. Significant Greek debt is held by German banks who are not fiscally stable enough to accept a full-scale Greek default; so the bailout is necessary to save the domestic banking system. And even if that weren't the case, it's not in Germany's interests for Europe to enter another recession (and it would probably be a depression) as it would damage German exports.

 

[Pavilionaire]

It would be interesting to know about the debate over Political and Monetary Union within Germany. I bet there were dissenters who proclaimed the weaker economies would f*** things up for the rest but clearly the majority won. We mustn't lose sight of the importance of history here.

The background to Maastricht was that Germans had agreed to unify, and were totally up for creating a bigger, deeper wider Europe that the new, larger Germany could order around. Having unified Germany, the French were shitting themselves and so were totally up for jumping into a Single European Currency with the Germans.

 

[bhaexpress]

Bit of a long shot, you might ask should the Japanese make reparations for all the dreadful attrocities they comminted while you're at it. Whilst the Germans accept the war and The Haulocast few Japanese history books make much reference to the invasion of Indo China and the Second World War.

Still most of us have moved on.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Morally, because of the wars, no.

Because they and the French are the biggest supporters of a United States of Europe, closer integration and supported a Euro plan that was never going to work ( one size fits all my arse ) - yes.

 

[Triggaaar]

Let the Greeks starve

 

[bhaexpress]

Let the Greeks starve

Given their unreaslistic work ethic it's hard to feel much sympathy for the Greeks. I can think of plenty of other nations that are more deserving.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Sten,

I'm not ignoring anything, I'm aware of the economic arguments facing Merkel, but I'm also interested in the psychological aspects to all of this.

The Germans, buoyed by their reunification, drove the Single European currency and the ratification of the Maastricht Treaty.

They, and not us, are also the biggest European economic power because of WW2. Whilst money was pumped in from the West into Germany to halt the Communist advance Britain was struggling to repay war loans to the Yanks. We only finished repaying our WW2 debt at the end of 2006.

I'm surprised the Germans aren't getting more criticism for this Euro fiasco.

 

[Biscuit]

Given the devastation caused by 2 World Wars, the readiness of the Allies to help Germany rebuild post-1945 and the writing-off of war debt / reparations do the Germans now owe it to rest of Europe to provide much more cash for the bailout and help avert Eurozone meltdown?

I don't often bite on here but f*** it.

If you think this is a reason Germany should be helping out Europe you really are an idiot. An idiot that has made me a lot angrier than I should reasonably be. I love Germany and I love their work ethic and their society. What anything has to do with WWII debts is totally beyond me. Did we not make them suffer enough with total econmoic break down and hyperinflation after the first world war? Maybe losing 12.5% of their land and 11.5% of their population at the treaty of Versaille actually lead to the conditions that created a perfect storm for WWII. If they have a moral responsibility it's to the here and now and not wanting to see good people suffer. It's also because of their partnership with the French and the foundations that the Euro was built upon. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Second World War. I think it's actually extrememly insulting that you think it should be.

Germany has got over the war. Something we seem not to have done in the UK.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

Can I join in ? I'm going to say, yes .... or, no.

 

[Spiros]

The Germans - along with the French - were prime drivers of the Euro and for that reason they do have an obligation to pitch in and help the Greeks if they want to rescue their pet project. The Euro was supposed to be a big step along the road to a 'closer union of European nations' and - as bushy said earlier - came with tight strings attached which were meant to stop this sort of thing ever happening. However the first countries to fall foul of the rules were the Germans and French so they had to change that bit to suit themselves. Ultimately they are the architects of their own problem. Fortunately for us we decided to steer clear, along with the Danes and Swedes.

 

[brunswick]

heheh,

this thread just shows how ppl are still stuck in nationalism .....this is not actually what is going on.....it is the corporate and banking elite taking from the ppl.

"greeks this, and germans that" does not get anywhere close to what is going on.

the IMF - backed by the elite (land where born matter not or relevant) are raping nations, and people.

 

[Biscuit]

The Germans - along with the French - were prime drivers of the Euro and for that reason they do have an obligation to pitch in and help the Greeks if they want to rescue their pet project. The Euro was supposed to be a big step along the road to a 'closer union of European nations' and - as bushy said earlier - came with tight strings attached which were meant to stop this sort of thing ever happening.

And what does this have to do with WWII?

 

[Storer 68]

I think I'd rather they bailed Europe out FINANCIALLY

 

[Pavilionaire]

I don't often bite on here but f*** it. You small minded wanker.

If you think this is a reason Germany should be helping out Europe you really are an idiot. An idiot that has made me a lot angrier than I should reasonably be. I love Germany and I love their work ethic and their society. What anything has to do with WWII debts is totally beyond me. Did we not make them suffer enough with total econmoic break down and hyperinflation after the first world war? Maybe losing 12.5% of their land and 11.5% of their population at the treaty of Versaille actually lead to the conditions that created a perfect storm for WWII. If they have a moral responsibility it's to the here and now and not wanting to see good people suffer. It's also because of their partnership with the French and the foundations that the Euro was built upon. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Second World War. I think it's actually extrememly insulting that you think it should be.

Germany has got over the war. Something we seem not to have done in the UK.

Small-minded wanker? If you read what I wrote you'll see I'm not saying that I think they should contribute more money because of the war, I'm merely suggesting that with Germany there are immotive issues for them to consider.

For f***'s sake, what's wrong with people on this board having to have everything black or white? Anybody who suggests there might be shades of grey is pilloried.

I don't know who you are Biscuit, but calling me a wanker is well over the top.