Malaysian airline crash

[Czechmate]

they were Svoboda v's Party of Regions, about as much love as brighton palace

Yeh tasty , wonder if Klitchko stayed behind for that one , couldn't see him though.

 

[Czechmate]

Absolutely.

There has to be a compromise solution eventually which will only come about around a table - the longer the fighting goes on the more the ordinary citizens will suffer.

Quite , Ukraine have got to admit they need Russia , if not just for the oil/gas and finance , although if they want they can become more European but this will be a slow process over years , not the quick solution the EX prime Minister wanted . They are in a bit of a mess at the moment unfortunately and December is coming and the winter's are reasonably harsh and the gas runs out .

 

[Czechmate]

The BBC are starting to cover the civilian casualties in Eastern Ukraine, that's something at least.

Yeh saw that last night couldn't believe it , there you go Martyn a BBC view of something you couldn't believe was happening , did you see it ? and the buses shipping people to Russia.

 

[carlzeiss]

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/07/25/15/18/abbott-troops-to-be-deployed-to-ukraine

 

[dingodan]

Does anyone have a view about the video I posted from June about Ukrainian fighter planes using commercial airlines as human shields?

 

[surrey jim]

Does anyone have a view about the video I posted from June about Ukrainian fighter planes using commercial airlines as human shields?

Can you repost. Not seen the video

 

[dingodan]

Can you repost. Not seen the video

 

[Creaky]

Does anyone have a view about the video I posted from June about Ukrainian fighter planes using commercial airlines as human shields?

I'm not sure of the relevancy unless you are suggesting that was a possible scenario in the shooting down of MH17 - not something I've seen either side in the conflict claim happened.

As for the rest of the video there is little to say - it was one unidentified individual speaking to camera.

 

[dingodan]

I'm not sure of the relevancy unless you are suggesting that was a possible scenario in the shooting down of MH17 - not something I've seen either side in the conflict claim happened.

As for the rest of the video there is little to say - it was one unidentified individual speaking to camera.

Yes, I'm saying it's a possible scenario for what happened to MH17. Neither side have claimed this, but one side has claimed nothing, and the other side has said it was likely the Rebels, so neither side have ruled something like this out. The existence of this claim prior to the crash, whether believed or not, should really be part of the discussion about what may have happened to MH17, I would have thought.

What we need is more concrete information. No planes fly anywhere without leaving radar data, audio data, lot's of data. So it can easily be established what was flying where at the time. We have the black boxes from MH17, that will tell us what the pilots were saying to the ATC and between themselves. The Ukraine SS confiscated the tapes from ATC soon after the crash, but hopefully we will know more from the black boxes on Monday. That information and satellite images should be able to put this to rest, I'm surprised it hasn't already.

 

[beorhthelm]

thats cute. firstly are you going to blindly accept as absolute gospel the word of a militia? i mean theres nothing to discredit her but she's hardly an indepedent witness. secondly to the claim of using aircraft as shields, doesnt that create a problem for those that claim the rebels dont have anti-aircraft hardware? you dont need to be employing such methods if you have no threat from the ground.

and why do you continue to try to find alternatives to teh simple narrative that the rebels accidently shot down MH17 thinking it was a cargo plane, as they claimed they shot down. what are you trying to prove and to whom?

 

[Hillian1]

Yes, I'm saying it's a possible scenario for what happened to MH17. Neither side have claimed this, but one side has claimed nothing, and the other side has said it was likely the Rebels, so neither side have ruled something like this out. The existence of this claim prior to the crash, whether believed or not, should really be part of the discussion about what may have happened to MH17, I would have thought.

What we need is more concrete information. No planes fly anywhere without leaving radar data, audio data, lot's of data. So it can easily be established what was flying where at the time. We have the black boxes from MH17, that will tell us what the pilots were saying to the ATC and between themselves. The Ukraine SS confiscated the tapes from ATC soon after the crash, but hopefully we will know more from the black boxes on Monday. That information and satellite images should be able to put this to rest, I'm surprised it hasn't already.

Let's assume for a moment that there were Ukraine Fighters using MH17 as a shield and you are the person with his finger on the trigger of the Missile system on the ground.

Do you
A) Decide that launching the missile would be a bad idea.
B) Decide that it's a risk worth taking to pull the trigger.

I know which one I'd chose.

 

[dingodan]

thats cute. firstly are you going to blindly accept as absolute gospel the word of a militia? i mean theres nothing to discredit her but she's hardly an indepedent witness. secondly to the claim of using aircraft as shields, doesnt that create a problem for those that claim the rebels dont have anti-aircraft hardware? you dont need to be employing such methods if you have no threat from the ground.

and why do you continue to try to find alternatives to teh simple narrative that the rebels accidently shot down MH17 thinking it was a cargo plane, as they claimed they shot down. what are you trying to prove and to whom?

I'm don't claim anything about Rebels not having AA weapons, I haven't seen the evidence of them having these bigger systems, but it seems likely. & I don't take her at her word, it's just an account that was given before the crash, which could shed some light on it. Like I said it's a worthy part of the discussion. But as I said in my post before, radar data must exist for all aircraft in the sky at the time, I just hope we will get to see that.

I don't try to find alternatives to the simple narrative, but I admit I prefer a rigorous detailed narrative to a simple one.

 

[dingodan]

Let's assume for a moment that there were Ukraine Fighters using MH17 as a shield and you are the person with his finger on the trigger of the Missile system on the ground.

Do you
A) Decide that launching the missile would be a bad idea.
B) Decide that it's a risk worth taking to pull the trigger.

I know which one I'd chose.

Exactly.

This girl seems to suggest that the militia are aware of what they being enticed into doing. In fact she goes so far as to say, "They wanted to provoke the militia to shoot at the passenger plane".

Then she says, "They would say terrorists did it". Given this , the militia must also have thought what you and I think, which is A) bad idea.

Which doesn't square with them going on to shoot down a passenger plane a month later. But if they did, this is still a quite different story to what we are being told, and the blame is actually spread more evenly than is being presented if this is what happened.

 

[Creaky]

Exactly.

This girl seems to suggest that the militia are aware of what they being enticed into doing. In fact she goes so far as to say, "They wanted to provoke the militia to shoot at the passenger plane".

Then she says, "They would say terrorists did it". Given this , the militia must also have thought what you and I think, which is A) bad idea.

Which doesn't square with them going on to shoot down a passenger plane a month later. But if they did, this is still a quite different story to what we are being told, and the blame is actually spread more evenly than is being presented if this is what happened.

Too many 'ifs'

What's wrong with the generally accepted scenario?

It would seem that if the shooting of MH17 was just a tragic accident then the 'blame' that can be placed on the perpetrators is limited, which in turn reduces the options for retaliation. It seems that many on both sides don't like that idea.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Not only looting but boasting about it.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pro-russian-woman-poses-make-up-3915258

 

[dingodan]

May 13

Vice President Joe Biden's son and a close friend of Secretary of State John Kerry's stepson have joined the board of a Ukrainian gas producer controlled by a former top security and energy official for deposed President Viktor Yanukovych.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303851804579560542284706288

 

[seagull_in_malaysia]

Yes, I'm saying it's a possible scenario for what happened to MH17. Neither side have claimed this, but one side has claimed nothing, and the other side has said it was likely the Rebels, so neither side have ruled something like this out. The existence of this claim prior to the crash, whether believed or not, should really be part of the discussion about what may have happened to MH17, I would have thought.

What we need is more concrete information. No planes fly anywhere without leaving radar data, audio data, lot's of data. So it can easily be established what was flying where at the time. We have the black boxes from MH17, that will tell us what the pilots were saying to the ATC and between themselves. The Ukraine SS confiscated the tapes from ATC soon after the crash, but hopefully we will know more from the black boxes on Monday. That information and satellite images should be able to put this to rest, I'm surprised it hasn't already.

There was some information released on a Ukranian jet flying close behind MH17, so it could be plausible.

 

[dingodan]

There was some information released on a Ukranian jet flying close behind MH17, so it could be plausible.

Yes, the Russians have said that's what their data shows.

The Malaysian plane "deviated from its route to the North... The maximum deviation was 14 kilometres," he said.

"An altitude gain was recorded for a Ukrainian armed forces plane," he told the briefing. "Its distance from the Malaysian Boeing was three to five kilometres (two to three miles)," he said, noting that the SU-25 is capable of reaching a height of 10,000 metres "for a brief time."

"With what aim was a military plane flying along a civilian aviation route practically at the same time and at the same flight level as a passenger liner?" said Kartopolov. "We would like to receive an answer to this question."

The Russian official also challenged Washington to release its satellite images to back up its claim that rebels targeted the Boeing 777 with a missile.

"No one has seen those images," Kartopolov said, noting that a US satellite flew over the rebel-held part of Ukraine at around the time the plane crashed.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/ukraine-...-plane-mh17-before-crash-moscow/487442-2.html

But without all of the data being put together and examined independently official pronouncements from either side aren't necessarily reliable.

 

[Czechmate]

There was some information released on a Ukranian jet flying close behind MH17, so it could be plausible.

I noted this over a week ago that MH17 was asked to deviate from it's course , also that it was asked to fly a lot lower . It does seem very strange that all the bodies were laying in a small area considering it was allegedly flying at 33,000 feet .

I am not one to guess at what has happened though unlike a lot of media and NSC people , the course and more information should be noted on the flight box data so I will wait for facts .

 

[beorhthelm]

There was some information released on a Ukranian jet flying close behind MH17, so it could be plausible.

yes, more mis-informtation and misdirection from the Russians. funny that, especially when they are calling out the US on satellite images but dont produce anything themselves, except press releases.