[Football] Liverpool are the next club to announce furloughing non playing staff.

[jonny.rainbow]

Yep I can see some nasty atmospheres at games when this is over, assuming all PL clubs don’t end up going down this route

‘You can stick your f.....g furlough up your arse!’

 

[Hampster Gull]

Easy I've read your posts for years, some, most even I've agreed with. What I don't understand here is why football clubs should be treated any different to any other type of business? People have no problem with paying Say BA staffs wages, but football clubs are somehow different? Why? No one pays £50m for a player for vanity, they pay that money for an asset which is supposed to make them more successful and therefore more profitable. If BA spent £20m on a new Jumbo should that not mean the same thing then? Neither business is impoverished but one is crucified while both take advantage of the available legislation. I'm not saying either business is in the right but why the anger at the football club over any other business? Because of the faux outrage of the media?

If you really feel that way that is your prerogative, stop going, stop buying Sky subscriptions go another way, but football clubs are businesses in just the same way as other businesses are and entitled to do what they think is best for their business. As I said my company are a hugely profitable multi national who have furloughed most of their staff, they are worth more than any PL club and employ far more people but no one criticizes them? I'm not agreeing with the principle, I'm disageeing with the distinction between football and other companies.

At one level you’re right. The govt have set the rules so the economy bounces back quickly and a professional football club is a business along with others such as airlines. But this is the view of the world that says we are customers and this is a transactional relationship. For most on here and many not on here that is not how we see the relationship, we are part of a community, it is not a financial transaction. We expect our club (and by extension other clubs) to show certain values. And of course that’s been tested to the limit many times. But the EPL in the round and in its widest sense, eg clubs, elite players, the union etc, are so off the pace on this one it’s incredible. There is enough wealth in football too look after its own, not to beg from the next generation of taxpayers. ****ers

 

[Stat Brother]

You'll Never Walk Alone...






...Unless there's a global pandemic and UK tax payers are handing out free money to American billionaires...






...In that unlikely scenario JOG ON.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

And those elite footballers for the elite clubs have not stepped up and taken action themselves to ensure that all of those people employed to cook and clean for them or mow their pitches or answer the calls from their fans are safe financially.
Billionaires and millionaires who own, run and play football for these clubs are NOT volunteering to protect those 'beneath' them because they are special.
If the club is furloughing all of the non-playing staff why not furlough the playing staff too. If things are really that bad, you start with where you can gain the greatest benefit for the business with the minimal disruption.

Furlough the first team, furlough the Board of Directors, furlough those most able to take the hit, not the ones with the quietest voice.

I am appalled by the actions of this sport and if BHA jumps on this bandwagon I will not be renewing my season ticket after the 20/21 season. This club has consistently shown a better attitude that most and, to now, continues to lead the way with actions like the STH payment holiday and the senior staff, but I cannot clap and cheer a team that refused to do the right thing by the people who make their lives so easy.

Don't bash the players. Not yet. That's not right.

As for BHA....sounds like you're looking for an excuse to pack it it. There is not the slightest sign that we will do that.

Normally a thumbsupper of your posts

 

[Stat Brother]

I can't be bothered to rake up the Spurs thread.
Unfortunately I also can't be bothered to find the specific maths either, but it goes something like this:-

550 people furloughed.
Average wage £30k
For 3 months (I think it was 3)
Their combined wage would cost Joe Lewis


0.015% of his wealth.



#MakeThePlayersPay.

 

[father_and_son]

Don't bash the players. Not yet. That's not right.

As for BHA....sounds like you're looking for an excuse to pack it it. There is not the slightest sign that we will do that.

Normally a thumbsupper of your posts

There is a press release from PB paving the way.

I sincerely hope the club don't go down this route and that our "no dickhead policy" proves to be enough to keep us apart from the rest.

But, in these difficult times, I am becoming extremely cynical about my fellow man and their reactions to the challenges we face.

Some people can do a little and some people can do a lot, but nobody gets to do nothing.

Whether it's avoiding public places on a sunny day or just buying one packet of paracetamol when you just need one packet or being a millionaire and giving up a week's wage to help out someone who earns a fraction of what you do basically picking up after you.

 

[Seasidesage]

At one level you’re right. The govt have set the rules so the economy bounces back quickly and a professional football club is a business along with others such as airlines. But this is the view of the world that says we are customers and this is a transactional relationship. For most on here and many not on here that is not how we see the relationship, we are part of a community, it is not a financial transaction. We expect our club (and by extension other clubs) to show certain values. And of course that’s been tested to the limit many times. But the EPL in the round and in its widest sense, eg clubs, elite players, the union etc, are so off the pace on this one it’s incredible. There is enough wealth in football too look after its own, not to beg from the next generation of taxpayers. ****ers

25 years ago I would've agreed with you.

 

[Seasidesage]

Are you seriously comparing PL clubs who have received 100’s of millions and have season ticket funds in their bank with BA ? BA will be losing millions with absolutely no money coming, aircraft to pay for and full refunds issued for cancelled flights. No comparison at all imo. BA will need Government backing or they will fold, what chance Liverpool folding?

If this goes on for months, a rethink may be needed but it’s obscene how a club like Liverpool have jumped straight on the bandwagon of grabbing tax payers money

Both of them have/had reasonable balance sheets, both have zero income now, so yes to a degree I am, I'm not debating the rights and wrongs of the argument of claiming, just the hypocrisy of singling out football clubs over other businesses.

 

[Seasidesage]

Not here to speak for Easy, but the difference between the Jumbo Jet in your analogy and an elite footballer is that the elite footballer has free will. The millions spent on servicing an aircraft is something that *has* to be spent the the Jumbo cannot say 'hang on mate, don't spend any money on me so my pilots and crew can still be paid'. A professional footballer is, in theory at least, a human being who can take a measured decision to give up some of their wages to ensure that their crew are safe.

It is different. The outrage can be natural and not media-generated. Footballers and club Boards can show humanity, generosity and humility rather than just ignoring what's going on around them.

Its different but only the footballers themselves can agree to defer their wages. If the clubs unilaterally break the contract with the player they write off the value of the player by defaulting on the contract. Would giving Lewis Dunk for example a free transfer be good business? Player wage deferral should and must come but it has to come from the players themselves...

 

[Hampster Gull]

25 years ago I would've agreed with you.

I suspect most fans as opposed to customers wont have changed their intrinsic relationship with their club over 25 years, even as the clubs have massively changed. But I can see some will have moved to the more customer type relationship

 

[Seasidesage]

But are top Premier League football clubs the same as other businesses though? They seem quite a different fish, sacking managers and paying up contracts etc.

They are run very differently for sure. Worse in a lot of examples, but ultimately they are businesses the same as any other no matter what we as fans invest emotionally.

 

[Easy 10]

Easy I've read your posts for years, some, most even I've agreed with. What I don't understand here is why football clubs should be treated any different to any other type of business? People have no problem with paying Say BA staffs wages, but football clubs are somehow different? Why? No one pays £50m for a player for vanity, they pay that money for an asset which is supposed to make them more successful and therefore more profitable. If BA spent £20m on a new Jumbo should that not mean the same thing then? Neither business is impoverished but one is crucified while both take advantage of the available legislation. I'm not saying either business is in the right but why the anger at the football club over any other business? Because of the faux outrage of the media?

If you really feel that way that is your prerogative, stop going, stop buying Sky subscriptions go another way, but football clubs are businesses in just the same way as other businesses are and entitled to do what they think is best for their business. As I said my company are a hugely profitable multi national who have furloughed most of their staff, they are worth more than any PL club and employ far more people but no one criticizes them? I'm not agreeing with the principle, I'm disageeing with the distinction between football and other companies.

ANY business that is cash-rich enough to continue to pay its staff over the next few months should do so. This emergency fund is not in place to keep balance sheets looking healthy - its there to stop businesses laying off staff and going to the wall. Its there to make the difference between the business continuing to trade during this current crisis and come through it, or folding.

LFC does not enter that bracket. No Premier League club does. They can ALL afford to pay their non-playing staff for the next 3 months without putting 80% of that burden onto the taxpayer. Thats not to say it may not change - it can't go on indefinitely. But the fact that they've triggered this furlough scheme so early, when they really don't need to, is sickening. Are they allowed to do it ? Yes. SHOULD they ? Well, you'll have your own opinion on that, and I have mine.

And the comparison with BA is a poor one. BA employ some 45,000 staff, the costs of keeping all of them them on whilst their planes are grounded and the travel industry collapses all around them is huge, its on another scale. Liverpool/Spurs/Newcastle - clubs who will gamble tens of millions on a single player, are only having to cover the cost of a few hundred low paid staff within their business. And yet they're saying its too much for them to pay out, even for a few months ?

I'm sorry, I can't even begin to square that circle. Its obscene.

 

[Stat Brother]

Both of them have/had reasonable balance sheets, both have zero income now, so yes to a degree I am, I'm not debating the rights and wrongs of the argument of claiming, just the hypocrisy of singling out football clubs over other businesses.

For me it's the juxtaposition of (in Spurs' case) 'only' 550 people furloughed with Joe Lewis' £4.2bn personal wealth.
I appreciate he, and now FSG a mere £2bn company, has his fingers in a lot of pies all effected by Corona, but a decent chunk of that wealth comes from not paying any tax, so why is the tax payer footing this bill?

 

[Seasidesage]

I suspect most fans as opposed to customers wont have changed their intrinsic relationship with their club over 25 years, even as the clubs have massively changed. But I can see some will have moved to the more customer type relationship

The clubs relationship with us now is very much one of customer rather than fan. That's not to say they don't do an awful lot of great community work but its very business like mostly IMO.

 

[father_and_son]

Its different but only the footballers themselves can agree to defer their wages. If the clubs unilaterally break the contract with the player they write off the value of the player by defaulting on the contract. Would giving Lewis Dunk for example a free transfer be good business? Player wage deferral should and must come but it has to come from the players themselves...

Agree to a point. Yes, the players have to agree to this, but it's not like the club won't "dump" a player who shows a shitty attitude in the next available window. Assets they are but indispensible assets they aren't.

 

[Hampster Gull]

The clubs relationship with us now is very much one of customer rather than fan. That's not to say they don't do an awful lot of great community work but its very business like mostly IMO.

I am not making my points from the clubs perspective but I’m aware you are

 

[Seasidesage]

For me it's the juxtaposition of (in Spurs' case) 'only' 550 people furloughed with Joe Lewis' £4.2bn personal wealth.
I appreciate he, and now FSG a mere £2bn company, has his fingers in a lot of pies all effected by Corona, but a decent chunk of that wealth comes from not paying any tax, so why is the tax payer footing this bill?

I absolutely think Joe Lewis should be paying more tax. But my point is that big companies in other markets have done exactly the same without the controversy. Not that I think it is right to do so.

 

[Seasidesage]

Agree to a point. Yes, the players have to agree to this, but it's not like the club won't "dump" a player who shows a shitty attitude in the next available window. Assets they are but indispensible assets they aren't.

THe very best players often are though or at the very least are assets to be traded at a premium when it suits? I think we will see wage deferrals in the coming days and all but the most mercenary of players will agree to it. But it is difficult for a club to impose it without player buy in. The players hold the cards now.

 

[Easy 10]

I absolutely think Joe Lewis should be paying more tax. But my point is that big companies in other markets have done exactly the same without the controversy. Not that I think it is right to do so.

We are football fans. We follow the game, we follow the clubs, we are invested in it financially and emotionally, we know a lot about the clubs, the owners, we talk about it. So when a high profile club does something that stinks, of COURSE it causes controversy. And any other large successful business that pilfers emergency funds right now when it doesn't really need to, deserves equal ire.

I'm not here to talk about other big business that choose to furlough though, as this is still a football message board. The greed and self-interest of the Premier League is familiar and well documented, so when some of its members take that on to an astonishing new level then yes, expect anger and disgust at them. It is fully justified.

 

[portslade seagull]

ANY business that is cash-rich enough to continue to pay its staff over the next few months should do so. This emergency fund is not in place to keep balance sheets looking healthy - its there to stop businesses laying off staff and going to the wall. Its there to make the difference between the business continuing to trade during this current crisis and come through it, or folding.

LFC does not enter that bracket. No Premier League club does. They can ALL afford to pay their non-playing staff for the next 3 months without putting 80% of that burden onto the taxpayer. Thats not to say it may not change - it can't go on indefinitely. But the fact that they've triggered this furlough scheme so early, when they really don't need to, is sickening. Are they allowed to do it ? Yes. SHOULD they ? Well, you'll have your own opinion on that, and I have mine.

And the comparison with BA is a poor one. BA employ some 45,000 staff, the costs of keeping all of them them on whilst their planes are grounded and the travel industry collapses all around them is huge, its on another scale. Liverpool/Spurs/Newcastle - clubs who will gamble tens of millions on a single player, are only having to cover the cost of a few hundred low paid staff within their business. And yet they're saying its too much for them to pay out, even for a few months ?

I'm sorry, I can't even begin to square that circle. Its obscene.

Totally agree, saving peanuts but they will 100% sure go out and make big signings for multi millions