Ken Livingstone Suspended

[Swillis]

How delightful Hamas TV is, to be filming & showing this.

Disgusting


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-dressed-terrorists-acted-murdering-Jews.html

Agreed, it is disgusting. Are you as quick to condemn the Israeli land grabs? Or do you just conveniently ignore it.

 

[Hampster Gull]

"Its a disaster". Labour turning in on itself

 

[Eeyore]

Being anti-semitic is wrong. But opposing Zionism is something completely different.

It seems that some folk need to establish a few delineations before giving their thoughts.

 

[Buzzer]

Being anti-semitic is wrong. But opposing Zionism is something completely different.

It seems that some folk need to establish a few delineations before giving their thoughts.

Genuine question. Does that include me?

 

[Ernest]

"Its a disaster". Labour turning in on itself

Whilst all is well in the Tories , HAPPY days

 

[Buzzer]

Whilst all is well in the Tories , HAPPY days

Happy days indeed. We're governed by political pygmies. All of them.

 

[Ernest]

Happy days indeed. We're governed by political pygmies. All of them.

You give PYGMIES a BAD name

 

[Leekbrookgull]

Now John Mann does seem to be available for interviews whether radio or tv quite a bit of late. Funny from what i understand this 'bust-up' with Red Ken happened outside the BBC Westminster office and just a week away from the May elections a connection ?

 

[daveinprague]

Except, of course, those on the left who hate Jews and there's been plenty of reports over the last few years of these people. Tom Watson of the Labour Party says there's a problem, Lord Levy in the Labour Party says there's a problem, John Mann in the Labour Party says there's a problem, the Jewish Chronicle says there's a problem, the Chief Rabbi says there's a problem so I think it's naive to say that anti-semitism on the Left doesn't exist.

Well, like I said, thats how it seemed to me. I do think this sort of thing is something that will cross party lines, same as racism, but thats how its always seemed to me.

 

[darkwolf666]

Every serious historian that I've read on this says that Livingstone is distorting the evidence for his own aims. John Mann is correct when he says that Hitler's plans for the Jews was clear from Mein Kampf in the early 1920s: He wanted the world rid of them, end of story. I think it's incredibly dodgy to equate forcible ejection of Jews from Germany into Palestine the same as supporting a sovereign Jewish state. Hitler never wanted that and he was never a Zionist. It's ridiculous this is even being debated.

Livingstone never claimed Hitler was a Zionist, but that he supported Zionist ideas and ideals...

 

[Eeyore]

Genuine question. Does that include me?

It wasn't directed at anyone in particular. My main point is this. I believe the 'anti-semitic' card is being used against those who oppose Israeli government policy. And, well, that's it really.

 

[darkwolf666]

Thereby implying Hitler WASN'T mad prior to 1938.

I like Livingstone but his remarks are crass. It reminds me of when Big Ron made derogatory remarks about Marcel Desailly after 40 plus years in football and departed in disgrace 'post-haste'.

Who knows when Hitler's madness kicked in, or what his great plan was prior to the holocaust. We still come back to the fact that Livingstone was criticising the current Israeli regime saying that they smear anyone that opposes their way and here we go, exactly what he said! He is being smeared and misquoted by the majority of the media who all run scared of standing up to Israel for fear of being labelled anti-Semitic

 

[Buzzer]

Well, like I said, thats how it seemed to me. I do think this sort of thing is something that will cross party lines, same as racism, but thats how its always seemed to me.

I'll meet you halfway here. I'll happily concede that anti-semitism is almost a pre-requisite for membership of any far-right party and that the situation on the left is far more subtle and I do think that most are anti-Zionists rather than anti-Semites but over the last few years the lines have been blurred. I think some of that comes from groups such as BDS movement and the unsavoury nutters that it attracts on its fringes. Then there's the wannabe Galloways and Livingstones, tin-foil hatters who see Jewish banking conspiracies at every turn. And trying to put it delicately, there is a strong anti-Semitic strand in the Muslim community that has been tolerated for far too long and excused away as cultural differences. I think this is part of what Tom Watson was addressing today.

With regards the latter, I think Stephen Pollard, the Jewish Chronicle Editor put it best. He believes Naz Shah is sincerely sorry and that she will try to learn from this and help fight anti-semitism. He's got no hopes for Livingstone and hopefully he is history. British politics is all the better for his exit.

 

[Sorrel]

Every serious historian that I've read on this says that Livingstone is distorting the evidence for his own aims. John Mann is correct when he says that Hitler's plans for the Jews was clear from Mein Kampf in the early 1920s: He wanted the world rid of them, end of story. I think it's incredibly dodgy to equate forcible ejection of Jews from Germany into Palestine the same as supporting a sovereign Jewish state. Hitler never wanted that and he was never a Zionist. It's ridiculous this is even being debated.

Livingstone is trying to associate the two concepts together in order to equate them. Why else is he doing it? He's trying to legitimise the idea that Zionism can be considered in the same breath as Fascism.

I don't see what's wrong with Zionism. Jewish people have as much right as anyone else to create a state if they want. The Turks, for example, originate in Central Asia (where there are several Turkish states now) and some of them migrated to Anatolia and formed what we now call Turkey, expelling and massacuring over a million Greeks, Armenians and Kurds all in the last 100 years, invading Cyprus and continuing to occupy it.

Jewish people have committed far far fewer crimes in Israel. Yet there's a movement against Israel, but not Turkey. It doesn't seem very logical to me and appears to be based on prejudice.

 

[Buzzer]

Livingstone never claimed Hitler was a Zionist, but that he supported Zionist ideas and ideals...

Once again, Hitler did not support Zionist ideals. Zionism is all about a stable and successful sovereign Jewish state. All Hitler wanted to do was deport Jews from Germany at the earliest opportunity and then to deal with them at a later date.

For goodness sake, just think about it for a minute. To support Zionism to any degree would require respect for the Jewish faith.

 

[Buzzer]

Yet there's a movement against Israel, but not Turkey. It doesn't seem very logical to me and appears to be based on prejudice.

This is what puzzles me too. I'm not a Zionist, but I do believe that Israel has the right to exist and that they are unique in the Middle East in believing in democracy...sort of. The land grabs and the expulsions are wrong and I don't think it's okay that Palestinians suffer. From what I've read recently I hope a two-state solution can be achieved.

But as you say, the Middle East is full of similar situations, the Kurdish issue that you mention is a very good example and it's ridiculous that Jordan never gets any criticism over Palestine. One more thing I don't understand is why don't all these pro-Palestinian groups in the West bring their influence to bear on the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah with regards their clear and unadulterated anti-Semitism?

 

[BHAFC_Pandapops]

I think Mr Livingston is wrong to say this. It's horrific, even. But to use it as a platform to criticise the whole party is a bit far.

 

[looney]

Trust me Looney , I have never wondered why I am accused of anti semitism. Because guess what.......... Until you, I haven't been. So I reckon I'm ok on that score . Israel breaks more U.N. Resolutions than anybody and I wonder why they get away with that ? Don't respond with your 3 D's anymore.......... It's meaningless and far to broad to continue a debate on.
There is no substance in your arguments as to your accusations whatsoever.

None of thati s actually an answer.

Trust me Looney , I have never wondered why I am accused of anti semitism. Because guess what.......... Until you, I haven't been. So I reckon I'm ok on that score . .

Shooting the messenger is ad hominem and not an answer.

? Don't respond with your 3 D's anymore.......... It's meaningless and far to broad to continue a debate on.

Why?How would you define Anit-sematism? I know definitions can be difficult but you are not providing anything.

There is no substance in your arguments as to your accusations whatsoever.

Why not? Refute my points dont just bluster.

 

[looney]

apart from the $3billion direct military aid, billions in loans and effectively being the state's security guarantor? and how about the AIPAC political lobbying group, funding politics with $millions. you have to be very blinkered to not recognise the strong, public, two way USA-Israeli relations.

Ah here we go, the Evil jewish lobbiests whoexert some magical powe over the US electorate and elected representatives and rig the democratic system which is beyond the good and decent opponents of israel..

F off you bigot.

 

[Chicken Run]

It wasn't directed at anyone in particular. My main point is this. I believe the 'anti-semitic' card is being used against those who oppose Israeli government policy. And, well, that's it really.

Not too dissimilar to the race card directed at anyone who feels a little agitated towards illegal immigrants and the current system for controlling it eh?