[News] Just 3 years for killing a boy through dangerous driving

[drew]

And sadly we could go on and on and on with examples just like this.

No one's listening unfortunately. It's the accepted price of a car led culture.

Afraid I'm going to disagree. I think there is a shift in attitudes to driving and town planning etc is moving in that direction. It isn't going to change overnight and that change is, regrettably, not going to be in time for too many. There are far more cycle lanes than there has ever been before and there will be more. In Burgess Hill there are planned cycle routes in the new 3500 home development to the north of the town. There are plans for a cycle route between Burgess Hill and Haywards Heath.

 

[1066familyman]

Afraid I'm going to disagree. I think there is a shift in attitudes to driving and town planning etc is moving in that direction. It isn't going to change overnight and that change is, regrettably, not going to be in time for too many. There are far more cycle lanes than there has ever been before and there will be more. In Burgess Hill there are planned cycle routes in the new 3500 home development to the north of the town. There are plans for a cycle route between Burgess Hill and Haywards Heath.

Specifically, keeping on topic of this thread, which is sentencing for causing death by dangerous driving. See this latest Government release:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...rts-bill-2021-road-traffic-offences-factsheet


Here's the headline...

So, today I am announcing that we will bring forward legislation early next year to introduce life sentences for dangerous drivers who kill on our roads, and ensure they feel the full force of the law.

Sounds encouraging. Especially if that was written in 2017, when they initially promised to introduce these new sentencing guidelines.

Only that report was updated on 16th April 2021. So, if we're to believe it this time, then 2022 could see a change happen.

Hmmm, anyone got a mower I can borrow please. Only the grass seems to be getting a tad long.


On your specific post on changes in attitude towards driving and town planning. There are small changes going on, I agree. And you're also right that it isn't going to change overnight. Recent encouraging signs in transport funding and policy, in terms of pop bike lanes etc are, on serious reflection, like taking a knife to a gun fight, when you really dip into the figures and see where we are.

So once again, I assert that we are all paying a price for a car led culture.

 

[studio150]

Here's the headline...

So, today I am announcing that we will bring forward legislation early next year to introduce life sentences for dangerous drivers who kill on our roads, and ensure they feel the full force of the law.

Sounds encouraging. .

I don't see this as doing anything for road safety, as all the Bill does is look to increase the maximum sentence from 14 years to Life, it does not mean that if someone is killed by someone driving dangerously that a life sentence is mandatory,

It will not change the attitude of drivers, but just enables Daily Mail and Torygraph readers say that tje Government is tough on crime.

So even when the maximum sentence becomes law, there will still be cases where those that believe that every death should mean a life sentence will be posting about their outage at what they believe to be lenient sentences

 

[1066familyman]

I don't see this as doing anything for road safety, as all the Bill does is look to increase the maximum sentence from 14 years to Life, it does not mean that if someone is killed by someone driving dangerously that a life sentence is mandatory,

It will not change the attitude of drivers, but just enables Daily Mail and Torygraph readers say that tje Government is tough on crime.

So even when the maximum sentence becomes law, there will still be cases where those that believe that every death should mean a life sentence will be posting about their outage at what they believe to be lenient sentences

I totally agree with you. Changing maximum sentencing alone doesn't change much, beyond what you outline.

It's a whole culture shift that's needed to improve road safety for all, not to mention improve everyone's health.

The point I'm making is that a car led culture is what's driving the sentences we still have.

 

[Acker79]

Specifically, keeping on topic of this thread, which is sentencing for causing death by dangerous driving. See this latest Government release:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...rts-bill-2021-road-traffic-offences-factsheet


Here's the headline...

So, today I am announcing that we will bring forward legislation early next year to introduce life sentences for dangerous drivers who kill on our roads, and ensure they feel the full force of the law.

Sounds encouraging. Especially if that was written in 2017, when they initially promised to introduce these new sentencing guidelines.

Only that report was updated on 16th April 2021. So, if we're to believe it this time, then 2022 could see a change happen.

Hmmm, anyone got a mower I can borrow please. Only the grass seems to be getting a tad long.

Which kinda goes back to my earlier post about the idea of longer sentences being about appearances rather than problem solving

But to the point about whether the maximum sentence was increased or not - that the government claim increasing sentences solves anything is a recurring theme on the twitter feed. It is something MPs do to seem tough on crime by promoting the idea of tougher sentences, but when financing of the legal system is going down, courts being close, police being underfunded, CPS being underfunded, causing delays etc. that result in cases being dropped, less reliable evidence (with witnesses having to remember two, three years ago), then sentencing takes into account the amount of time the convicted person has been waiting for trial, etc. They have come to the conclusion there's never been a better time to be a criminal.

There's a thread of tweets starting with this one

[tweet]1371030760501747712[/tweet]

Someone put them into a reader app:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1371030760501747712.html

 

[drew]

I totally agree with you. Changing maximum sentencing alone doesn't change much, beyond what you outline.

It's a whole culture shift that's needed to improve road safety for all, not to mention improve everyone's health.

The point I'm making is that a car led culture is what's driving the sentences we still have.

But it isn't just changing sentencing though is it? In London there are emission controls which, over time will have a health benefit, even more so as we transition towards all electric. There are more and more 20mph zones which should reduce the worse outcomes from a collision. There are more and more safety features on cars such as collision avoidance systems, more high end at the moment, but we are moving in the right direction. Driverless cars are being trialled.

Some people seem to think you can flick a switch and overnight everything will be perfectly safe.

 

[Worried Man Blues]

Dimbos driving along using Whattsapp or whatever will not stop due to length of jail sentence. The very least should be a life long ban on driving so they will not kill again...unless they drive illegally!

 

[Weststander]

I don't see this as doing anything for road safety, as all the Bill does is look to increase the maximum sentence from 14 years to Life, it does not mean that if someone is killed by someone driving dangerously that a life sentence is mandatory,

It will not change the attitude of drivers, but just enables Daily Mail and Torygraph readers say that tje Government is tough on crime.

So even when the maximum sentence becomes law, there will still be cases where those that believe that every death should mean a life sentence will be posting about their outage at what they believe to be lenient sentences

Agree with all that, but I wouldn’t make it party political or the right is the enemy. I know loads of apolitical folk (yes, away from NSC, many people live daily lives for other reasons), who are staunch petrol heads, boy they hate the rise of cycling in this country. Some female btw. Reasons .... a typical one is being held up by cyclists riding on country lanes believe it or not.

 

[Weststander]

Dimbos driving along using Whattsapp or whatever will not stop due to length of jail sentence. The very least should be a life long ban on driving so they will not kill again...unless they drive illegally!

Wearing seat belts and drink driving, were the dogged mobile phone issues of decades past. When I first drove in the 80’s three times as many people died on the UK roads. Half the people I knew of my Dad’s generation and mine routinely drunk drove, often smashed.

The penalty if caught was a 12 month ban, a small fine, no naming in the papers and increased motor insurance for a few years after regaining a licence. I know loads caught, some twice.

Seat belts and drink driving were in the main cracked, with harsher penalties, naming and shaming, and loss of careers.

Use of a mobile when driving as a matter of course, even if no accident, should be an automatic ban.

 

[drew]

Dimbos driving along using Whattsapp or whatever will not stop due to length of jail sentence. The very least should be a life long ban on driving so they will not kill again...unless they drive illegally!

With regard to phone usage, the first penalty should be seizure and disposal of the vehicle regardless of who owns it. If they've caused injury then it should be the same levels of punishment you would get if you were prosecuted for assaulting someone in the street and if you kill them then the same penalties for manslaughter.

Of course, at the end of the day it's about catching people breaking the laws and that needs investment. More CCTV around towns, particularly junctions (how hard is it to lob a camera on the top of traffic lights!) and more police.

 

[Stat Brother]

But it isn't just changing sentencing though is it? In London there are emission controls which, over time will have a health benefit, even more so as we transition towards all electric. There are more and more 20mph zones which should reduce the worse outcomes from a collision. There are more and more safety features on cars such as collision avoidance systems, more high end at the moment, but we are moving in the right direction. Driverless cars are being trialled.

Some people seem to think you can flick a switch and overnight everything will be perfectly safe.

The Dutch did, in the late 60's early 70's.

It was a women/mother's lead cause, based on 'how many more of our children will be killed?

There was widespread opposition, they faced it down and through that generation they completely changed the country's approach to town and city centre transportation.


These guys weren't waiting for modern technology to stop killing children

[tweet]1381984296374767616[/tweet]

You're 100% correct when you say longer sentences won't stop WhatsApp taking priority over a life.

We all need protecting from ourselves - different coloured tarmac isn't going to save too many lives.

 

[schmunk]

With regard to phone usage, the first penalty should be seizure and disposal of the vehicle regardless of who owns it.

That's daft - even if they'd stolen the car?

 

[drew]

That's daft - even if they'd stolen the car?

Now that is daft. Obviously if they are driving the car legally, ie it's theirs or with the owners permission.

 

[drew]

The Dutch did, in the late 60's early 70's.

It was a women/mother's lead cause, based on 'how many more of our children will be killed?

There was widespread opposition, they faced it down and through that generation they completely changed the country's approach to town and city centre transportation.


These guys weren't waiting for modern technology to stop killing children

[tweet]1381984296374767616[/tweet]

You're 100% correct when you say longer sentences won't stop WhatsApp taking priority over a life.

We all need protecting from ourselves - different coloured tarmac isn't going to save too many lives.

So how long did it take, guessing it wasn't overnight.

 

[Weststander]

So how long did it take, guessing it wasn't overnight.

The BBC’s Dutch correspondent Anna Holligan a couple of months back presented a mini doc on the news channel about bike culture in The Netherlands. She explained that in 1945/1950, bike riders faced the same risks as in say the UK and Italy now, high death rates, motorised road users had zero respect for bike riders.

It took innovative politicians quite some time to transform matters, pushing back against the majority.

The UK is not alone. In a separate piece, Milanese are furious with the pop up bike lanes which have appeared in the last 14 months. Taxi drivers seemed most irate.

 

[studio150]

a typical one is being held up by cyclists riding on country lanes believe it or not.

Crazy, using the B roads I always expect to slow down for cyclists, horse riders and farming machinery, or even slower moving cars. Far better to chill out and be held up for a minute or so, than causing an accident.

 

[Weststander]

The Dutch did, in the late 60's early 70's.

It was a women/mother's lead cause, based on 'how many more of our children will be killed?

There was widespread opposition, they faced it down and through that generation they completely changed the country's approach to town and city centre transportation.


These guys weren't waiting for modern technology to stop killing children

[tweet]1381984296374767616[/tweet]

You're 100% correct when you say longer sentences won't stop WhatsApp taking priority over a life.

We all need protecting from ourselves - different coloured tarmac isn't going to save too many lives.

From 01:48.

 

[Weststander]

Crazy, using the B roads I always expect to slow down for cyclists, horse riders and farming machinery, or even slower moving cars. Far better to chill out and be held up for a minute or so, than causing an accident.

I’ve been in the car of a driver fuming about it, in my family!! Hates cyclists in tandem especially.

Chris Boardman has carefully explained that two abreast makes cyclists more visible, it saves lives.

Do you ever cycle? I think it helps the mindset. I’m a car driver, I have to be eg a regular client 25 miles away cross country. But I ride when I’m in the mood for fitness.

When driving, I take great care to help anyone on two wheels, it’s my responsibility in 1.5t of steel.

 

[drew]

The BBC’s Dutch correspondent Anna Holligan a couple of months back presented a mini doc on the news channel about bike culture in The Netherlands. She explained that in 1945/1950, bike riders faced the same risks as in say the UK and Italy now, high death rates, motorised road users had zero respect for bike riders.

It took innovative politicians quite some time to transform matters, pushing back against the majority.

The UK is not alone. In a separate piece, Milanese are furious with the pop up bike lanes which have appeared in the last 14 months. Taxi drivers seemed most irate.

The point being it won't happen overnight. Change is happening and the more it happens the faster the pace of change. Look at smoking. Widely accepted that smokers could light up where ever they chose, and frequently did. You had non smoking carriages on trains I think from about 1949 and full bans on smoking on trains came in 1984 and then it was 2007 when it was banned from any public enclosed space.

 

[Stat Brother]

The BBC’s Dutch correspondent Anna Holligan a couple of months back presented a mini doc on the news channel about bike culture in The Netherlands. She explained that in 1945/1950, bike riders faced the same risks as in say the UK and Italy now, high death rates, motorised road users had zero respect for bike riders.

It took innovative politicians quite some time to transform matters, pushing back against the majority.

The UK is not alone. In a separate piece, Milanese are furious with the pop up bike lanes which have appeared in the last 14 months. Taxi drivers seemed most irate.

After a little more thought I can better date when the Dutch really got to grips with urban transportation for all.
The angry minority used the early 70's fuel crisis as a stepping stone to bring about permanent change.

In the clip I posted (25 secs to go) there's a section of path that's between 2 banks of terraced houses.
I've got 6p saying that was once a road.
Cars would have been right up against the front of the houses, now they have 2 footpaths and 2 cycle paths.

Night and day in terms of the difference in safety for all.