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[Misc] JFK Assassination 59 years on



The Clamp

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Jan 11, 2016
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West is BEST
Conspiracy theorists are just buying into someone else's theory. They have no special insight, knowledge or curiosity even. There is likely some truth in some of the theories but they are so poorly researched and easily debunked, they're simply not reliable. Most of what theorists call "research" is usually nothing more than either a Youtube channel run by angry little Incel, Snyder cut, social outcasts or someone making money off a constant stream of lonely people who drift onto their channel because nobody wants to touch their willy.

Claiming a conspiracy must be true because "They had a reason to do it" is not proof.

Either way, I have no interest in people who claim to know the definitive truth without demonstrable proof. They are often wrong. Wrong and boring.
 
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Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
Conspiracy theorists are just buying into someone else's theory. They have no special insight, knowledge or curiosity even. There is likely some truth in some of the theories but they are so poorly researched and easily debunked, they're simply not reliable. Most of what theorists call "research" is usually nothing more than either a Youtube channel run by angry little Incel, Snyder cut, social outcasts or someone making money off a constant stream of lonely people who drift onto their channel because nobody wants to touch their willy.

Claiming a conspiracy must be true because "They had a reason to do it" is not proof.

Either way, I have no interest in people who claim to know the definitive truth without demonstrable proof. They are often wrong. Wrong and boring.
And those who spend 5-10 hours a day consuming mainstream media and mainstream culture aren't buying into someone elses theories?

And also don't be so hard on yourself.
 


Hugo Rune

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Feb 23, 2012
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Brighton
Why do people always assume that aliens will have had to travel hundreds of light years to get here?
They could actually be living within our solar system.
Mars used to have an atmosphere and liquid water, how advanced was any life on there before it disappeared?
Then there is planet 'X', a theoretical planet that has not been discovered yet.

(I won't push my luck with the planet Nibiru or the moon being artificial and hollow, I'll leave them to @you-know-who)
The question of Aliens visiting Earth is not a conspiracy theory in itself. The Trump administration (profound believers of conspiracy theories like Swanny) made sure that the public would eventually be informed about all UAP (unidentified aerial phenomenon) activity leading to two senior U.S. defense intelligence officials to spill the beans:

“Bray, deputy director of naval intelligence, said the number of UAPs officially cataloged by a newly formed Pentagon task force has grown to 400 cases. Both officials chose their words carefully in describing the task force's work, including the question of possible extraterrestrial origins, which Bray said defense and intelligence analysts had not ruled out.”

This leaves the door open to extra terrestrial visitations.

The ‘conspiracy’ bit that would interest Swanny would be the nonsense around first contact having already occurred with either/or Alien abductions and the US covering up Alien crashes or meetings with Aliens.

The existence of another Alien civilisation in this solar system that visits the planet earth is a conspiracy theory however. Whilst there might be life on several other moons/dwarf planets and even planets in this solar system, complex life (more than one cell) is extraordinarily unlikely. If there is complex life, it lives somewhere like 100kms below the icy crust of Europa and is probably not a civilisation and certainly not travelling to Earth. Life evolving from a single cell to multiple cells has only happened once on this planet (if it happened here at all). It’s almost impossible that it has happened twice in our solar system.

When we think about the hypothetical Alien visits to this planet, I think that we tend to make two big errors. Firstly, that they travelled here under the limitations we impose on Einstein’s theory of relativity. No Alien spacecraft is going to travel for thousands, millions or billions of years to get here, it makes no sense. If Aliens are visiting our planet, they are doing so with technology that can manipulate gravity and space time on a way that we can’t imagine or conceive, the various (400+) UFO or UAP sightings the US has admitted too back this theory up as the phenomenon sighted has been documented to act in ways that we can’t explain in terms of speed, manoeuvring and then just disappearing.

The second error is the justification for these visits (which could also be from future humans). Surely the most obvious hypothesis is that if these UAP are really aliens, they are scientists studying us and our planet. The protocol would surely be ‘no contact’ because they would not want affect the environment they are studying in the same way we make sure that our Mars landers have absolutely no life on them (I’m think single cell bacteria etc) when they land on the red planet so we can make sure that any discoveries of life are genuinely extra terrestrial.

Finally, what does ‘mainstream’ science say about extraterrestrial, intelligent life? Well you can’t get anymore mainstream than Brian Cox. He believes that there is one existing civilisation capable of radio communication and space travel per galaxy at any given time on average. So, that’s 100 billion+ different alien civilisations. Hardly a conspiracy to think that some of them might find their way here to observe us with technology billions of years as advanced as what we have. However, the idea they are arriving here and either crashing (how you could have the technology to travel to the earth but then crash when you got here???) or colluding with the US government is one for Swanny and his fellow conspiracy believers to enjoy.
 


The Clamp

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Jan 11, 2016
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And those who spend 5-10 hours a day consuming mainstream media and mainstream culture aren't buying into someone elses theories?

And also don't be so hard on yourself.
Well, yes. That is exactly my point. Conspiracy theorists are no different to the vast majority of people in that they consume just as much drivel. Only they call it research and pretend it is more worthy.

You're aware that all these Youtube channels and stuff on other platforms is all just as mainstream as anything else, right? It's all designed to extract cash from gullible people. You see research, they see dollar signs. Conspiracy Theory is a vast industry that generates billions of dollars every year.

I have yet to meet a conspiracy theorist that has ever had an original thought about the topic. Everything you lot say, I have heard in some form or another since I was in college. The good news for you is that most people grow out of it.

As for aliens visiting earth? Yeah maybe. Who knows. Who could comprehend how and why it could happen. Best to keep an open mind on that topic because nobody knows for sure. Or do they........................?
 
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Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
Well, yes. That is exactly my point. Conspiracy theorists are no different to the vast majority of people in that they consume just as much drivel. Only they call it research and pretend it is more worthy.

You're aware that all these Youtube channels and stuff on other platforms is all just as mainstream as anything else, right? It's all designed to extract cash from gullible people. You see research, they see dollar signs. Conspiracy Theory is a vast industry that generates billions of dollars every year.

I have yet to meet a conspiracy theorist that has ever had an original thought about the topic. Everything you lot say, I have heard in some form or another since I was in college. The good news for you is that most people grow out of it.

As for aliens visiting earth? Yeah maybe. Who knows. Who could comprehend how and why it could happen. Best to keep an open mind on that topic because nobody knows for sure. Or do they........................?
Well I agree with the first paragraph except I believe mainstreamers are exactly equally guilty of calling things "research" and pretending it is more worthy.

I wouldn't say they are just as mainstream - the reach is smaller, quite simply. That a lot of people earn a lot of money on this is no doubt however.
Well, you've yet to meet me. I have some original thoughts, but I struggle to see the real issue with someone not having it: among mainstreamers it is no different - people read or watch things and get inspiration/information from those sources. There's people like you who blame Brexit for everything bad that has ever happened, and there's people like the far/moderately right-wingers who blame immigrants for everything and their mother. These are not original thoughts.
Not sure most people "grow out of it", but most people learn not talk conspiracies (except the ones mainstreamers support, such as Vladimir Putin deciding the election of any dislikable politician in the Western world) among friends & family. Partially because you get fed with alienation or abuse and partially because you don't want to annoy people in your surroundings with your theories. If I had a buddy always going on about lizards, I'd get pretty f***ing tired of him.
 




Happy Exile

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Apr 19, 2018
1,909
Brian Cox did a piece on why we haven’t been visited by aliens and it boils down not to if they exist ( the law of averages indicate they do) but just the shear distances that would need to be travelled ( we are talking about 100 & 1000 of light years) which means someone needs to figure out how to not only achieve light speed, but to go at speeds at 100 times faster. The other way is to do with black holes and wormholes which is way beyond me.
I think it more likely that we have been visited by aliens than the moon landings were faked.
There's also something in basic probability. With the age of the universe and what we know/suspect of how life began on earth it's almost certain intelligent life has existed many times over in the universe. The probability of that intelligent life cooexisting at the same moment in time across those many billions of years is however very small. Homo sapiens have existed for less than one twentieth of one percent of the time earth has.

The probability of it coexisting but being in the same galaxy is smaller still, and hence the probability of intelligent life finding other intelligent life across billions of years, billions of galaxies, and trillions of miles is almost non-existent. Possible, but mathematically improbable.
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,905
Hove
Well I agree with the first paragraph except I believe mainstreamers are exactly equally guilty of calling things "research" and pretending it is more worthy.

I wouldn't say they are just as mainstream - the reach is smaller, quite simply. That a lot of people earn a lot of money on this is no doubt however.
Well, you've yet to meet me. I have some original thoughts, but I struggle to see the real issue with someone not having it: among mainstreamers it is no different - people read or watch things and get inspiration/information from those sources. There's people like you who blame Brexit for everything bad that has ever happened, and there's people like the far/moderately right-wingers who blame immigrants for everything and their mother. These are not original thoughts.
Not sure most people "grow out of it", but most people learn not talk conspiracies (except the ones mainstreamers support, such as Vladimir Putin deciding the election of any dislikable politician in the Western world) among friends & family. Partially because you get fed with alienation or abuse and partially because you don't want to annoy people in your surroundings with your theories. If I had a buddy always going on about lizards, I'd get pretty f***ing tired of him.
The US President a couple of years after faking landing on the moon couldn’t even organise a cover-up of the Watergate break in.

The biggest question really is the organisation involved and the vast numbers of people needed to be in on the conspiracy defies belief that such a feat would be possible. Flying to the moon being easier than a conspiracy involving thousands of people and actors that played out their parts for the rest of their lives.

As governments bumble through their existence, another US President unable to even cover up a blow job, we’re supposed to believe they were able to fake a moon landing and dupe the world.

The important thing for you is to read the counter arguments to your conspiracy sources. It’s very easy to read the likes of Don DeLillo’s Libra and buy into the premise, but it is a work of fiction.
 
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DavidinSouthampton

Well-known member
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Jan 3, 2012
16,697
Well, yes. That is exactly my point. Conspiracy theorists are no different to the vast majority of people in that they consume just as much drivel. Only they call it research and pretend it is more worthy.

You're aware that all these Youtube channels and stuff on other platforms is all just as mainstream as anything else, right? It's all designed to extract cash from gullible people. You see research, they see dollar signs. Conspiracy Theory is a vast industry that generates billions of dollars every year.

I have yet to meet a conspiracy theorist that has ever had an original thought about the topic. Everything you lot say, I have heard in some form or another since I was in college. The good news for you is that most people grow out of it.

As for aliens visiting earth? Yeah maybe. Who knows. Who could comprehend how and why it could happen. Best to keep an open mind on that topic because nobody knows for sure. Or do they........................?
I think the aliens visiting earth are all microscopic and inside Suella Braverman’s head.

have I just started a conspiracy theory? It did, of course, involve extensive research. When does the money start rolling in?

or alternatively she’s just incompetent.
 




Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
The biggest question really is the organisation involved and the vast numbers of people needed to be in on the conspiracy defies belief that such a feat would be possible. Flying to the moon being easier than a conspiracy involving thousands of people and actors that played out their parts for the rest of their lives.

As governments bumble through their existence, another US President unable to even cover up a blow job, we’re supposed to believe they were able to fake a moon landing and dupe the world.

The important thing for you is to read the counter arguments to your conspiracy sources. It’s very easy to read the likes of Don DeLillo’s Libre and buy into the premise, but it is a work of fiction.
1. Keeping secrets that may well cost your life to reveal is not unusual or particularly difficult. There are many CIA, govt and military operations that weren't revealed until many decades later (and probably a lot that were never revealed at all) despite involving thousands of people. Take the Gulf of Tonkin incident that started the Vietnam war as an example: thousands must have been aware that the alleged attack didn't happen, yet it took until 2003 before you weren't labelled a looney for suggesting it.

2. Why wouldnt they? You think most of the 50+ confirmed US-backed state coups happened through saying "here we are!" or through undercover operations, almost always including propaganda? The latter is the answer. But it really isn't about what the "US government" can or can not do. The American financial elite is running the country through their lawless executive arm, the CIA. The government is just a piece of their toolbox, with the main objective to creating the illusion of a democracy.

3. I don't knw who Don DeLillo is. Can he play left-back?
 


The Clamp

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Jan 11, 2016
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West is BEST
Well I agree with the first paragraph except I believe mainstreamers are exactly equally guilty of calling things "research" and pretending it is more worthy.

I wouldn't say they are just as mainstream - the reach is smaller, quite simply. That a lot of people earn a lot of money on this is no doubt however.
Well, you've yet to meet me. I have some original thoughts, but I struggle to see the real issue with someone not having it: among mainstreamers it is no different - people read or watch things and get inspiration/information from those sources. There's people like you who blame Brexit for everything bad that has ever happened, and there's people like the far/moderately right-wingers who blame immigrants for everything and their mother. These are not original thoughts.
Not sure most people "grow out of it", but most people learn not talk conspiracies (except the ones mainstreamers support, such as Vladimir Putin deciding the election of any dislikable politician in the Western world) among friends & family. Partially because you get fed with alienation or abuse and partially because you don't want to annoy people in your surroundings with your theories. If I had a buddy always going on about lizards, I'd get pretty f***ing tired of him.
You see things in quite a binary way. There are many people including myself, who don’t believe wholesale what they read in the media but don’t necessarily think we are all being controlled by a Jewish Cabal of lizard beings from Blargon 5 either.

🤣
 


Bold Seagull

strong and stable with me, or...
Mar 18, 2010
29,905
Hove
1. Keeping secrets that may well cost your life to reveal is not unusual or particularly difficult. There are many CIA, govt and military operations that weren't revealed until many decades later (and probably a lot that were never revealed at all) despite involving thousands of people. Take the Gulf of Tonkin incident that started the Vietnam war as an example: thousands must have been aware that the alleged attack didn't happen, yet it took until 2003 before you weren't labelled a looney for suggesting it.

2. Why wouldnt they? You think most of the 50+ confirmed US-backed state coups happened through saying "here we are!" or through undercover operations, almost always including propaganda? The latter is the answer. But it really isn't about what the "US government" can or can not do. The American financial elite is running the country through their lawless executive arm, the CIA. The government is just a piece of their toolbox, with the main objective to creating the illusion of a democracy.

3. I don't knw who Don DeLillo is. Can he play left-back?
1. I'm not suggesting there cannot be subterfuge, deceit, lies and propaganda, but to scale that up to the biggest event in the history of mankind - is quite a leap.

3. Call yourself a conspiracist and you haven't read Libra. Shame on you.
 




Hugo Rune

Well-known member
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Feb 23, 2012
21,914
Brighton
But it really isn't about what the "US government" can or can not do. The American financial elite is running the country through their lawless executive arm, the CIA. The government is just a piece of their toolbox, with the main objective to creating the illusion of a democracy.
And this is exactly why you are bonafide conspiracy theorist. You make a statement that most people would agree with such as the American financial elite are running the country. But you then provide the most ridiculous, absurd argument for this rather than the obvious one that is clear to everyone else. Bonkers!

Are the financial elite running America?

Yes - most people would accept that.

How are the financial elite running America?

Politicians and political policies are for sale in the US and always have been. The democrats or republicans need to raise about $7 billion to fund their election campaign. They are clearly selling political influence to the richest people/corporations in the US to get this funding*.



Is democracy an illusion in the US?

Probably. Only two parties can win and only a very wealthy or influential person can become president. The financial elite will always pull the strings because of the electoral system in place. Yes - the people with the highest votes win but the whole system is profoundly weighted to the rich.

Does the CIA run the country?

No. Conspiracy theory bollocks.

Does the financial elite directly run the CIA?

No. Conspiracy theory bollocks.

*Warning. Mainstream media link without the ability to ask questions.
 


Lenny Rider

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2010
5,509
1. Keeping secrets that may well cost your life to reveal is not unusual or particularly difficult. There are many CIA, govt and military operations that weren't revealed until many decades later (and probably a lot that were never revealed at all) despite involving thousands of people. Take the Gulf of Tonkin incident that started the Vietnam war as an example: thousands must have been aware that the alleged attack didn't happen, yet it took until 2003 before you weren't labelled a looney for suggesting it.

2. Why wouldnt they? You think most of the 50+ confirmed US-backed state coups happened through saying "here we are!" or through undercover operations, almost always including propaganda? The latter is the answer. But it really isn't about what the "US government" can or can not do. The American financial elite is running the country through their lawless executive arm, the CIA. The government is just a piece of their toolbox, with the main objective to creating the illusion of a democracy.

3. I don't knw who Don DeLillo is. Can he play left-back?
Didn’t De Niro say in ‘The Irishman’ “A secret between three people can only remain a secret when two of the people are dead”?
 


Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
You see things in quite a binary way. There are many people including myself, who don’t believe wholesale what they read in the media but don’t necessarily think we are all being controlled by a Jewish Cabal of lizard beings from Blargon 5 either.

🤣
Nope
1. I'm not suggesting there cannot be subterfuge, deceit, lies and propaganda, but to scale that up to the biggest event in the history of mankind - is quite a leap.

3. Call yourself a conspiracist and you haven't read Libra. Shame on you.
Talking about the moon-landing right? (not sure that - if it happened - landing on some dusty shitehole is the biggest event in the history). Not sure more than a couple of hundred people needed to know at the time and a further couple of hundred at any given time afterwards - not difficult to keep secret, and not difficult to control the people involved, making sure they either stay quiet or does not get any recognition for claims they may have.
 






Deportivo Seagull

I should coco
Jul 22, 2003
4,944
Mid Sussex
Nope

Talking about the moon-landing right? (not sure that - if it happened - landing on some dusty shitehole is the biggest event in the history). Not sure more than a couple of hundred people needed to know at the time and a further couple of hundred at any given time afterwards - not difficult to keep secret, and not difficult to control the people involved, making sure they either stay quiet or does not get any recognition for claims they may have.
Anyone and everyone involved in aviation and rocket research was involved in the moon landings beginning with the sound barrier and Gemini project. it’s in the 10’s of 1000’s not in 100’s. The supply chain just for the rocket is enormous even without taking into account the R&D effort.

You are showing a frightening level of ignorance regards how projects such as this work and the human interaction needed to get things done, hence the difficulty in keeping secrets.
FYI, engineers are really bad at secrets as they love talking about their work.
 




Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Anyone and everyone involved in aviation and rocket research was involved in the moon landings beginning with the sound barrier and Gemini project. it’s in the 10’s of 1000’s not in 100’s. The supply chain just for the rocket is enormous even without taking into account the R&D effort.

You are showing a frightening level of ignorance regards how projects such as this work and the human interaction needed to get things done, hence the difficulty in keeping secrets.
FYI, engineers are really bad at secrets as they love talking about their work.
Australia had a dish from 1961 which was tracking satellites. In 1969. NASA thought their pictures were of better quality than their own, so used Parkes pictures instead.

When I left the Navy, I had a job at GEC in Stanmore. sending telexes to Parkes and Goonhilly (Cornwall) from GEC regarding scientific findings.
 




Swansman

Pro-peace
May 13, 2019
22,320
Sweden
Anyone and everyone involved in aviation and rocket research was involved in the moon landings beginning with the sound barrier and Gemini project. it’s in the 10’s of 1000’s not in 100’s. The supply chain just for the rocket is enormous even without taking into account the R&D effort.

You are showing a frightening level of ignorance regards how projects such as this work and the human interaction needed to get things done, hence the difficulty in keeping secrets.
FYI, engineers are really bad at secrets as they love talking about their work.
Obviously NASA had like 10 000 employees or something at the time, but it doesn't make everyone involved in the actual event itself. Similar to how Brighton might have 500-600 employees but not all of them are on the pitch every game.
 


Zeberdi

Brighton born & bred
NSC Patron
Oct 20, 2022
4,977
The US President a couple of years after faking landing on the moon couldn’t even organise a cover-up of the Watergate break in.
I agree with you in principle but you have forgotten that President Biden faked winning the 2020 election 😂

Some of the ideas on this thread are way out there with foil hats and aliens being stored on a remote ranch in North Mexico. All very attention seeking really. 😴

There are often grains of truth in most conspiracy theories but conspiracists are particularly adept at rationalizing the barest of unproven facts as a basis for evidential explanations. Most of the more outlandish and socially significant Conspiracy theories and sometimes even the less impactful ones are generated by sad, disaffected, impressionable people not able to accept the social reality of their situation or world and are purely psychologically and emotionally driven.
 


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