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Is this the end for the Conservative Party?
- Thread starter Pavilionaire
- Start date
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 31,632
- Thread starter
- #42
Still, Michael Howard's got Hallowe'en to look forward to.
Tooting Gull
Well-known member
- Jul 5, 2003
- 11,035
What do the Conservatives actually stand for? I have a reasonable general knowledge of politics, but couldn't list all their specific policy pledges. If you asked me what is my general impression of those policies, I would say:
1) Slash immigration
2) Slash taxes
3) Cut spending, especially NHS and education, encouraging people (ie those that can afford it) to go private
4) Pretty much the same foreign policy as Blair
5) Support hunting
6) Like royalty
That may or may not be fair - but if it is, that is clearly not a menu that today's Britain wants to eat from.
1) Slash immigration
2) Slash taxes
3) Cut spending, especially NHS and education, encouraging people (ie those that can afford it) to go private
4) Pretty much the same foreign policy as Blair
5) Support hunting
6) Like royalty
That may or may not be fair - but if it is, that is clearly not a menu that today's Britain wants to eat from.
Tom Bombadil
Well-known member
Let me say that on the whole this is a most surprisingly adult discussion. I expected to see a load of mudslinging, but with the exception of pavilionaire's partisan definition of sleaze this is all considered stuff.
Just for the record I think the Tories problem is a membership too far to the right of the political spectrum. Hence the inability to elect a moderate leader who could appeal beyond the core support.
Just for the record I think the Tories problem is a membership too far to the right of the political spectrum. Hence the inability to elect a moderate leader who could appeal beyond the core support.
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 31,632
- Thread starter
- #46
I am most disappointed to be accused of being partisan as I merely pointed out that Labour are just as bad as the Tories when it comes to sleaze (and, for the record, I currently vote for neither party.)
If you're talking membership, the Tories biggest problem is age. I work in close proximity to a Conservative constituency office and have not seen any members under 45 visit the place.
They are, literally, a "dying" party.
If you're talking membership, the Tories biggest problem is age. I work in close proximity to a Conservative constituency office and have not seen any members under 45 visit the place.
They are, literally, a "dying" party.
Pavilionaire said:
I think it's the fact that you placed Robin Cook leaving his wife for another woman on a par with perjury, perverting the course of justice and accepting bribes. That seems a bizarre interpretation of what sleaze is, to say the very least.
Pavilionaire
Well-known member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 31,632
- Thread starter
- #48
Fucks sake, I just listed some names and the words sleaze and corruption, I didn't say they were all sleazy and all corrupt, or say they were all as bad as each other.
Personally, I think Cook is sleazy. Being in an airport departure lounge and being told by Alistair Campbell that you've got one hour to come clean about your infidelity or else the shit hits the fan media-wise is hardly papal conduct.
Personally, I think Cook is sleazy. Being in an airport departure lounge and being told by Alistair Campbell that you've got one hour to come clean about your infidelity or else the shit hits the fan media-wise is hardly papal conduct.
The Large One
Who's Next?
I don't think we can read too much into the Tories' 4th place last night. Mandelson was popular in Hartlepool, and a lot of voters would have wanted to keep a Labour MP. Bi-elections almost always throw up numerical oddities. The figures don't really amount to much.
Point in case, Q: which party at which general election got the highest number of votes ever?
A: The Conservatives in 1992. And they returned with a majority of just 21. Just 350 votes going the other way in the right constituencies would have meant a hung parliament. Labour on the other hand have returned ENORMOUS majorities in the previous two elections. You can see what the figures highlighting the popular vote can prove? Not much. It's one of the peculiarities of the 'first-past-the-post' system.
The Tories persent the perception that they just will not move with the times. They are perceived as being out of touch - hence the 'abolish speed cameras' number today. Speed cameras are hardly top of most people's agendas.
They are also in a no-win situation where - as has been stated on this thraead already - their voters who are disillusioned far-right wingers are already abandoning them to UKIP, and their 'left-wingers' and 'modernisers' are not really given a voice.
I am not a betting man (I am crap at the bookies), but if I did have to bet, I would say that Labour will win the next general election by about 50-60 seats. I can't see them retaining their lead as it is now. Which is a battering considering their majority of 170-odd now, but it would make for a more responsible and considerate government.
Point in case, Q: which party at which general election got the highest number of votes ever?
A: The Conservatives in 1992. And they returned with a majority of just 21. Just 350 votes going the other way in the right constituencies would have meant a hung parliament. Labour on the other hand have returned ENORMOUS majorities in the previous two elections. You can see what the figures highlighting the popular vote can prove? Not much. It's one of the peculiarities of the 'first-past-the-post' system.
The Tories persent the perception that they just will not move with the times. They are perceived as being out of touch - hence the 'abolish speed cameras' number today. Speed cameras are hardly top of most people's agendas.
They are also in a no-win situation where - as has been stated on this thraead already - their voters who are disillusioned far-right wingers are already abandoning them to UKIP, and their 'left-wingers' and 'modernisers' are not really given a voice.
I am not a betting man (I am crap at the bookies), but if I did have to bet, I would say that Labour will win the next general election by about 50-60 seats. I can't see them retaining their lead as it is now. Which is a battering considering their majority of 170-odd now, but it would make for a more responsible and considerate government.
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Row Z Creased Shirt
New member
The main problem for the tories is that most of the discontent in the country is with Tony Blair in particular and not the government in general. And where there is discontent with the government it is mainly because of things which are perceived as being right leaning policies (PFI/ID cards etc) which is why the lib dems are the party hoovering up the weak labour vote and not the tories, who cling to their core 30% or so moving neither one way or the other.
I think as a serious party of government the tories are in a bad way, IMHO they simply offer the country nothing. They seem to stand for no-one in particular, just the selfish and greedy. They are bereft of any decent policy initiatives, just gimmicky such as voucher systems for public services which will benefit hardly anyone.
As has been pointed out, they have little room for manouvre. To move further to the right only alienates the majority of the electorate and the Lib Dems already offer a home for the left leaning dissenter. It will take someone with more wit and imagination than Michael Howard to turn them around.
I think as a serious party of government the tories are in a bad way, IMHO they simply offer the country nothing. They seem to stand for no-one in particular, just the selfish and greedy. They are bereft of any decent policy initiatives, just gimmicky such as voucher systems for public services which will benefit hardly anyone.
As has been pointed out, they have little room for manouvre. To move further to the right only alienates the majority of the electorate and the Lib Dems already offer a home for the left leaning dissenter. It will take someone with more wit and imagination than Michael Howard to turn them around.
The Large One
Who's Next?
So there is a thread of opinion that states the Tories are in a very awkward / no room for manoeuvre situation. So the original question stands. Is this the end of the Conservative Party?
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Beach Hut
Brighton Bhuna Boy
There will always be a conservative party but at present they have an ability to elect crap leaders.
William Hague, IDS, Michael Howard.
It all went wrong when Major was selected, had it been Hezza they would more than likely still be in power.
William Hague, IDS, Michael Howard.
It all went wrong when Major was selected, had it been Hezza they would more than likely still be in power.
The Large One
Who's Next?
But as the old saying goes, 'he who wields the sword never wears the crown...'Beach Hut said:
Beach Hut
Brighton Bhuna Boy
The Large One said:
Quite possibly right.
I really believe had Hezza been elected party leader Conservatives would still be here now.
However all the Conservative beliefs were hi-jacked by New Labour so it is all a bit clouded now.