Is this the end for the Conservative Party?

[Pavilionaire]

I've always thought Chris Patten would have made a good leader, post Hong Kong 1997, with Ken Clarke as Chancellor and Widdecombe as Home Secretary.

If so, politics might have become interesting again. Now it takes a bag of purple powder just to raise a smile.

 

[Gwylan]

Geoffrey Robinson
Peter Mandelson
Ron Davies
Robin Cook.

When it comes to sleaze and corruption Labour mix it with the best of them.

Robin Cook? Must be one of the straightest people in politics. What makes you think he's corrupt?

On the original question, I think it's better for democracy to have a decent opposition.; we manifestly haven't.

If the Tories had voted Ken Clarke as leader (ie someone vaguely human) then they'd probably be ahead in the polls. Howard had lots of 'something of the night' baggage, and then made matters worse by supporting the war. So anyone fed up with TB's lies on Iraq, can't vote for the Tories as they pursued the same policies.

I really think the Tories will be battered at the next election and they brought it on themselves.

 

[Eastleigh Seagull]

That is a very good point. In very simplistic terms, the Tories can't move to the left without alienating their core support and can't move to the right without becoming too Thatcherite again.

The trick is that Labour did alienate their core support when they moved to the centre/right under Blair but the core support firstly were so blinded by the thought of getting into power after eighteen years and secondly that they had nowhere else to go that they kept voting Labour.

The problem for the Tories is that if they try and compete for the centre ground to increase their vote they will not only alienate their support who now have the UKIP to hoover up the votes on their one big issue of conflict, but they will also lose out to Labour certainly in the next election due to the short time available.

They really have to plan for the election after next, by setting out their stall now as a more moderate, more populist party and also hope that they get through the Euro debate with less damage than Labour.

 

[Simster]

I've always thought Chris Patten would have made a good leader, post Hong Kong 1997, with Ken Clarke as Chancellor and Widdecombe as Home Secretary.

If so, politics might have become interesting again. Now it takes a bag of purple powder just to raise a smile.

This is the same clever diplomat who was handed the job of handing over Hong Kong to the biggest country in the world with its massive growing economic market of 1.3 billion - then a couple of months before handing it over, decided to implement a new democratic political system and haggle over who should stump up for the cost of the new airport - both just to piss off the Chinese.

Very helpful to British economic interests I'm sure you'll agree.

Chris Patten - no thanks.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Simster, I haven't noticed that our relations with China have suffered.

Quite the reverse, in fact. British companies are at the forefront of free trade developments in China.

 

[Eastleigh Seagull]

This is the same clever diplomat who was handed the job of handing over Hong Kong to the biggest country in the world with its massive growing economic market of 1.3 billion - then a couple of months before handing it over, decided to implement a new democratic political system and haggle over who should stump up for the cost of the new airport - both just to piss off the Chinese.

Very helpful to British economic interests I'm sure you'll agree.

Chris Patten - no thanks.

The introduction of a democratic system in a colony we were handing back to one of the most oppressive regimes in the world? Surely that qualifies him as a pretty good person who put the democratic right of British subjects above the economic interests of the country. We already spend far too much time pandering to the Chinese in the hope of economic riches when in reality all they are doing is sucking every coutnry dry, ripping off our products and producing the same things themselves while maintaining their evil regime. At least Patten made some attempt to stand up to them.

 

[On the Left Wing]

Geoffrey Robinson
Peter Mandelson
Ron Davies
Robin Cook.

When it comes to sleaze and corruption Labour mix it with the best of them.

More to do with being corrupted by power than individual parties IMHO.

I agree with you on Robinson and Mandelson .... but Ron Davies was never politically or criminally corrupt (I'd throw bin bag, light flex and Stephen Milligan back for that one!) and Robin Cook is one of the most honest politicians from any party

 

[Simster]

Simster, I haven't noticed that our relations with China have suffered.

Quite the reverse, in fact. British companies are at the forefront of free trade developments in China.

No thanks to Chris Patten.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Ok, Robinson and Mandelson corrupt, Davies and Cook sleaze, which is what I meant in the first place.

Keith Vaz as well, it's rife. Even Cherie took advice from a crook...

 

[Simster]

The introduction of a democratic system in a colony we were handing back to one of the most oppressive regimes in the world? Surely that qualifies him as a pretty good person who put the democratic right of British subjects above the economic interests of the country. We already spend far too much time pandering to the Chinese in the hope of economic riches when in reality all they are doing is sucking every coutnry dry, ripping off our products and producing the same things themselves while maintaining their evil regime. At least Patten made some attempt to stand up to them.

Sorry, but how is changing the way Hong Kong is run (a place which we oversaw and found no reason to change in over 100 years) in any way "standing up to the Chinese"? It's just irritating them. You might have a point if it was something the HK people had been clamerouring for over centuries and we had promised them 5 decades ago, but this twat walked in and decided to change the way things were run with barely 2 years left before we handed it over anyway.

 

[Barnet Seagull]

The conservatives have still got work to do.

Redwood & Soames in the shadow cabinet.

oh dear.

 

[Eastleigh Seagull]

The marching of hundreds of thousands of Hong Kong residents against the policies of Beijing that are trying to undo the bit of good that we did in establishing a fledgling democracy in the country suggests it is something they are clamouring for.

China are far too used to getting everyhting their own way - look at the bullying they have done of Singapore in the last few months. The more people stand up to them and dont get caught up in the Chinese economic mania that seems to be so infectious at the moment the better.

 

[beorhthelm]

the problem the Tories have right now is that Labour keep nicking their good policies, and have taken away alot of the "one nation"/centre right vote.

But come the next election they will still be the 2nd party in this country - UKIP is just a protest vote. the Liberals are going to to dent Labour in alot of marginal constituentcies and torys will problably make a net gain of a few dozen seats.

 

[Simster]

I don't disagree that democracy is the way forward, but it should be dealt with using international pressure or at government level at the very least, not some jumped up has-been turd who has no long term future in the place trying to make a name for himself and get his own political career back on track after the wise people of Bath correctly decided he was f***ing useless.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I could see the national vote at the next election being something in the region of:

Labour 38%
Tory 29%
Lib Dem 23%
UKIP 4%
Other 6%

 

[Simster]

Labour 36%
Tories 27%
Lib Dems 26%
UKIP/BNP 7%
Other 4%

 

[Albion Dan]

I would just LOVE it if the Lib dems beat the Tories in the next election.

I was watching question time last week when questioned on wether the Lib Dems were now credible the Tory spiv geek who was on the panel could do nothing but be childish and spiteful about them. Its that attitude that puts me and may off.

Im voting Lib Dem as a protest vote and I think many many others will do the same.

 

[Barnet Seagull]

What He Said

 

[Tooting Gull]

The Tories are paying a very heavy price for not electing the right leaders for nearly 20 years. There are three people since the mid-1980s who could have commanded wider support - Heseltine, Clarke and Patten. And they've all been rejected after bitter infighting because the party at large, and particularly the grass roots, just couldn't swallow the pro-Europe medicine.

Now they haven't got anyone of that calibre, and they're stuffed.

 

[Soton Seagull]

If an official opposition party cannot even pick up protest votes and win a seat against a Government that is deeply unpopular after the war, they are in deep trouble.