Hillsborough the search for the truth

[Twinkle Toes]

Why does anyone cover up a catastrophic f***-up?

The possibility of criticism, prosecution, loss of job, loss of pension, prison - the list goes on.

And it did follow on from Orgreave...

Indeed. I have a strong feeling that the investigations to come will shake the very core of both those who instigate The Law of The Land & those who are there to uphold it.

 

[Tooting Gull]

How often do we use these 'Independent Panels'? It just seems that it has been hugely more effective than all the usual legal routes for getting to the truth, so maybe we should use these more, and scrap some of the other things that have cost millions and got nowhere.

 

[Reinelt12]

Some interesting alternative views and comments on these blogs:
Liverpool Expects This Day Sick Justice!
Ambush Predator: s The New Black!

One question that keeps popping in to my head on all this, is would this tragedy have happened if it had been Forest fans in that side of the ground and not Liverpool? Or indeed if Brighton had played Forest that day instead?

A lot of what people had been saying (and the Sun alluded to) was that it was the Liverpool fans fault, but was that because they were Liverpool fans and they are different to other sets of fans? This is what the lady in the blog seems very sure about, but if there were the same number of xxxx teams fans there that day surely the same problem would have occurred? Even taking into account that there may have been drunk Liverpool fans at the game who from the report didnt cause the tragedy, but may not have helped the situation - surely again every team has a minority of fans who would have acted in the same way?

I have always thought of this tragedy in terms of it could have happened to me or one of my football supporting family, should we have been at the wrong ground at the wrong time, which is why when people say "it is nothing to do with us" on the other thread about Friday night I don't necessarily agree completely as I think it is to do with all football fans (Although I dont believe we should do anything on the night)

 

[The Large One]

One question that keeps popping in to my head on all this, is would this tragedy have happened if it had been Forest fans in that side of the ground and not Liverpool? Or indeed if Brighton had played Forest that day instead?

A lot of what people had been saying (and the Sun alluded to) was that it was the Liverpool fans fault, but was that because they were Liverpool fans and they are different to other sets of fans? This is what the lady in the blog seems very sure about, but if there were the same number of xxxx teams fans there that day surely the same problem would have occurred? Even taking into account that there may have been drunk Liverpool fans at the game who from the report didnt cause the tragedy, but may not have helped the situation - surely again every team has a minority of fans who would have acted in the same way?

I have always thought of this tragedy in terms of it could have happened to me or one of my football supporting family, should we have been at the wrong ground at the wrong time, which is why when people say "it is nothing to do with us" on the other thread about Friday night I don't necessarily agree completely as I think it is to do with all football fans (Although I dont believe we should do anything on the night)

The point she conveniently overlooks is that it DID happen (thankfully, with lesser consequences) to other fans, at the 1981 FA Cup Semi-Final.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Why does anyone cover up a catastrophic f***-up?

The possibility of criticism, prosecution, loss of job, loss of pension, prison - the list goes on.

Yes, almost certainly, I understand mine is a rhetorical question. And yet the initial tragedy happened because of a terrible stadium design and not because of any mistake by the police. the police only become culpable once the cover-ups start, by denying ambulance access etc.

side-question, was this a home stand or away stand - what happened during normal games at Hillsborough?

 

[BigGully]

One question that keeps popping in to my head on all this, is would this tragedy have happened if it had been Forest fans in that side of the ground and not Liverpool? Or indeed if Brighton had played Forest that day instead?

A lot of what people had been saying (and the Sun alluded to) was that it was the Liverpool fans fault, but was that because they were Liverpool fans and they are different to other sets of fans? This is what the lady in the blog seems very sure about, but if there were the same number of xxxx teams fans there that day surely the same problem would have occurred? Even taking into account that there may have been drunk Liverpool fans at the game who from the report didnt cause the tragedy, but may not have helped the situation - surely again every team has a minority of fans who would have acted in the same way?

I have always thought of this tragedy in terms of it could have happened to me or one of my football supporting family, should we have been at the wrong ground at the wrong time, which is why when people say "it is nothing to do with us" on the other thread about Friday night I don't necessarily agree completely as I think it is to do with all football fans (Although I dont believe we should do anything on the night)

Nothing exceptional about the set of fans, its the management of them that is key.

 

[Acker79]

Another pdf link for the full report:
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf

 

[Chief Wiggum]

A police perspective as well...
I POLICE INSPECTOR BLOG

 

[glasfryn]

I do get all that, I just question why the police felt the need to cover-up at all, what was driving that decision?

mores to the point WHO was driving it

 

[simmo]

The smear campaign worked very very well. The lies have been repeated time and again, even those contradicted by the Taylor report.

Serving politicians (most famously that bloke in charge of London) have been quite happy to reel them out over the years.

Even within the last few days on here, people have been quite happy to blame the fans.

Imagine yourself as a relation of one of the dead having to fight against that nonsense from mostly well meaning people who have swallowed the lies.

The campaigners are remarkable people.

I posted on another thread that my anger is directed at the cover up. That wrong doing has been going for over 20 years.

This is far from over, it's just begun.

Indeed they are. They have fought and never given up for those whom are no longer here and can speak for themselves about the tragedy and the authorities responses to that tragedy (and the subsequent smear afterwards by the police/sun etc) that occured at Hillsborough.

I am sure that if their loved ones are watching down on them, they would be very proud of them.

 

[On the Left Wing]

And maybe time for Boris to say sorry too, or better still stand down from public office:

 

[drew]

Nothing exceptional about the set of fans, its the management of them that is key.

That's fair enough but the behaviour of fans sets the climate in which they are managed. If there is one factor that could have been removed and would probably have saved many, if not all the lives, could have been the pitch side fencing. All the management errors on the day and leading up to the day may not have been tragic had fans simply been able to get on the pitch as the crush built up. So, why were the fences there? Simple answer is that during the 70s and 80s there were too many so called fans of football clubs that used matchday as an excuse to have a good ruck with the opposition which quite often spilled onto the pitch. The short term and kneejerk reaction was to fence the fans in (rather than actually stop the troublemakers getting in in the first place). There have been loads of posters on here eulogising about the glory years but probably absolve themselves of any culpability for their actions and the consequences.

That set the climate under which the Police and politicians viewed football fans in general and probably why so many catastrophic operational mistakes were made on the day and leading up to it. The view being that the job was for crowd control rather than crowd safety.

 

[Bwian]

Just reading a lot of Sheff Wed fans on Twitter being outraged that their club has any kind of responsibility to shoulder in this whole affair, and shocked the club apologised yesterday. They are blaming the FA for hosting the game there and the Liverpool fans for turning up late and/or without tickets. I am pretty sure none of them have read the report from yesterday that clearly shows the safety issues at the ground were known, and that the club chose not to act on recommendations on improving the safety in order to save money and so that stand didn't have a valid safety certificate. I'm not sure if the FA knew this as well though?

Sheffield Wednesday fans failing to grasp reality shock!

 

[teaboy]

That's fair enough but the behaviour of fans sets the climate in which they are managed. If there is one factor that could have been removed and would probably have saved many, if not all the lives, could have been the pitch side fencing. All the management errors on the day and leading up to the day may not have been tragic had fans simply been able to get on the pitch as the crush built up. So, why were the fences there? Simple answer is that during the 70s and 80s there were too many so called fans of football clubs that used matchday as an excuse to have a good ruck with the opposition which quite often spilled onto the pitch. The short term and kneejerk reaction was to fence the fans in (rather than actually stop the troublemakers getting in in the first place). There have been loads of posters on here eulogising about the glory years but probably absolve themselves of any culpability for their actions and the consequences.

That set the climate under which the Police and politicians viewed football fans in general and probably why so many catastrophic operational mistakes were made on the day and leading up to it. The view being that the job was for crowd control rather than crowd safety.

Whilst I agree with you on why the fences were put up in the first place, this is just another part of crowd mis-management. Football fans were tainted with the same brush, and still are - how many times has Heysel been mentioned on this thread alone? 2 wrongs do not make a right, whether that's from a behavioural perspective, or a management one.

 

[Captain Sensible]

This is great news, just 23 years too late. Those poor soles deserved much better and were victims in every sense of the word. They did not deserve to die and have themselves portrayed as drunken hooligans.

Although fans did not cause the disaster, hooliganism and Heysel was an indirect factor. It made authorities treat fans like animals and therefore it was easier for them to lie their way through after the event. If hooliganism never happened their could still have been a Hillsborough disaster, only without predujice and apathy from the authorities towards the fans and without the fight to clear names after.

May those poor soles now rest in peace.

 

[perseus]

Tangent: It was unbelievable at the time how safe Highbury was for the 1983 semi-final. I was at the side bit not behind the goal though. I arrived over an hour before the start though, anticipating problems.

Not so White Hart Lane in the late seventies (ticketless), but the Police seemed to have a grip of the chaos. Getting to the ground was tricky so there were many late arrivals.

The Taylor Report recommendations were not gleaned only from the Hillsborough Disaster (the one that was waiting to happen).

 

[Simster]

And maybe time for Boris to say sorry too, or better still stand down from public office:

He was completely wrong in that last sentence, that much is true. But his wider point on Liverpool still stands, IMO. Or are you advocating that anybody who took SYP's portrayal of events as reality should be hung, drawn and quartered? I don't think many laymen realised the extent of the cover up.

 

[Captain Sensible]

And maybe time for Boris to say sorry too, or better still stand down from public office:

This

 

[teaboy]

This is great news, just 23 years too late. Those poor soles deserved much better and were victims in every sense of the word. They did not deserve to die and have themselves portrayed as drunken hooligans.

Although fans did not cause the disaster, hooliganism and Heysel was an indirect factor. It made authorities treat fans like animals and therefore it was easier for them to lie their way through after the event. If hooliganism never happened their could still have been a Hillsborough disaster, only without predujice and apathy from the authorities towards the fans and without the fight to clear names after.

May those poor soles now rest in peace.

Looking at the footage of the Spurs fans at the 1981 semi-final I don't think Heyel can be blamed at all for Hillsborough. It was a disaster waiting to happen. The authorities knew that, and did nothing to prevent it. It just happened to be Liverpool there that day. It could've been ANY club on any other day.

 

[m20gull]

Looking at the footage of the Spurs fans at the 1981 semi-final I don't think Heyel can be blamed at all for Hillsborough. It was a disaster waiting to happen. The authorities knew that, and did nothing to prevent it. It just happened to be Liverpool there that day. It could've been ANY club on any other day.

Hillsborough cannot be blamed on Heysel, but I suspect there will aways be a link. If you can pin Hillsborough entirely on "the authorities" it makes it easier to do so for Heysel as well, thus denying fans of any responsibility. Just as football fans of any club could have easily been the victims that day, collectively we were part of the problem too.