[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Is it PotG?]

Good to hear Sir Keir saying last night was justifiable and understandable, and that the timing was right.

 

[nicko31]

I wouldn’t say I feel “happy” with the outcome. I’m saying that if a country was attacking your ships for weeks on end, a military response is inevitable. Wars have started over much less.

We need to defend International shipping whilst simultaneously demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.

I should add this is depriving Egypt is much needed income, wait till that place kicks off....

 

[jcdenton08]

We need to defend International shipping whilst simultaneously demanding an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.

I absolutely agree with you there.

 

[BadFish]

I wouldn’t say I feel “happy” with the outcome. I’m saying that if a country was attacking your ships for weeks on end, a military response is inevitable. Wars have started over much less.

I understand your point I just don't find it a compelling arguement against seeking consideration and support from the wider community (both locally and internationally). I will always err on the side of caution and hope that all alternate avenues, idea and options have been exhausted before bombing.

To me that is what the processes represent. Jaw jaw not war war and all that.

 

[jcdenton08]

I understand your point I just don't find it a compelling arguement against seeking consideration and support from the wider community (both locally and internationally). I will always err on the side of caution and hope that all alternate avenues, idea and options have been exhausted before bombing.

To me that is what the processes represent. Jaw jaw not war war and all that.

Joint Statement from the Governments of Australia, Bahrain, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand, Republic of Korea, United Kingdom, and the United States | The White House

Recognizing the broad consensus as expressed by 44 countries around the world on December 19, 2023, as well as the statement by the UN Security Council on December 1, 2023, condemning Houthi attacks against merchant and commercial vessels transiting the Red Sea, our governments issued a joint...

www.whitehouse.gov

JANUARY 11, 2024

Joint Statement from the Governments of Australia, Bahrain, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand, Republic of Korea, United Kingdom, and the United States​

Recognizing the broad consensus as expressed by 44 countries around the world on December 19, 2023, as well as the statement by the UN Security Council on December 1, 2023, condemning Houthi attacks against merchant and commercial vessels transiting the Red Sea, our governments issued a joint statement on January 3, 2024, which called for the immediate end of illegal attacks and warned that malign actors would be held accountable should they continue to threaten lives, the global economy, and the free flow of commerce in the region’s critical waterways. Despite this strong warning, attacks in the Red Sea have continued, including the launch of numerous missiles and one-way attack aerial vehicles against ships in the Red Sea on January 9, 2024, including U.S. and UK vessels. On January 10, 2024, the UN Security Council passed UNSCR 2722, which also condemned these attacks and demanded that they cease.

In response to continued illegal, dangerous, and destabilizing Houthi attacks against vessels, including commercial shipping, transiting the Red Sea, the armed forces of the United States and United Kingdom, with support from the Netherlands, Canada, Bahrain, and Australia, conducted joint strikes in accordance with the inherent right of individual and collective self-defense, consistent with the UN Charter, against a number of targets in Houthi-controlled areas of Yemen. These precision strikes were intended to disrupt and degrade the capabilities the Houthis use to threaten global trade and the lives of international mariners in one of the world’s most critical waterways.

The Houthis’ more than two dozen attacks on commercial vessels since mid-November constitute an international challenge. Today’s action demonstrated a shared commitment to freedom of navigation, international commerce, and defending the lives of mariners from illegal and unjustifiable attacks.

Our aim remains to de-escalate tensions and restore stability in the Red Sea, but let our message be clear: we will not hesitate to defend lives and protect the free flow of commerce in one of the world’s most critical waterways in the face of continued threats.

 

[wellquickwoody]

We all know that Hamas as a military and/or political group are a bunch of arseholes who attacked innocent Israelis without warning. And they can have expected/known that Israel would respond.

Then we get the appalling loss of life in Gaza as Israel flatten civilian infrastructure, target schools and hospitals, forces people from their homes, treats prisoners like cattle at best, all the time some of their most prominent politicians talking of eradicating Gaza and its people etc etc etc..

If that is not bad enough we then see Israel targetting enemies in third party countries, Syria and Lebanon. Now we have the self appointed world policeman along with its little wannabee cousin striking at another group of people in there own land.

When you cut away the crap and take it down to facts and facts alone, who are the bad guys again, or at least the less good of the two sides?

 

[nicko31]

We all know that Hamas as a military and/or political group are a bunch of arseholes who attacked innocent Israelis without warning. And they can have expected/known that Israel would respond.

Then we get the appalling loss of life in Gaza as Israel flatten civilian infrastructure, target schools and hospitals, forces people from their homes, treats prisoners like cattle at best, all the time some of their most prominent politicians talking of eradicating Gaza and its people etc etc etc..

If that is not bad enough we then see Israel targetting enemies in third party countries, Syria and Lebanon. Now we have the self appointed world policeman along with its little wannabee cousin striking at another group of people in there own land.

When you cut away the crap and take it down to facts and facts alone, who are the bad guys again, or at least the less good of the two sides?

Sadly the West isn't coming well out of this well. For Putin its a propaganda coup....

 

[BadFish]

Joint Statement from the Governments of Australia, Bahrain, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand, Republic of Korea, United Kingdom, and the United States | The White House

Recognizing the broad consensus as expressed by 44 countries around the world on December 19, 2023, as well as the statement by the UN Security Council on December 1, 2023, condemning Houthi attacks against merchant and commercial vessels transiting the Red Sea, our governments issued a joint...

www.whitehouse.gov

JANUARY 11, 2024

Joint Statement from the Governments of Australia, Bahrain, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, New Zealand, Republic of Korea, United Kingdom, and the United States​

Recognizing the broad consensus as expressed by 44 countries around the world on December 19, 2023, as well as the statement by the UN Security Council on December 1, 2023, condemning Houthi attacks against merchant and commercial vessels transiting the Red Sea, our governments issued a joint statement on January 3, 2024, which called for the immediate end of illegal attacks and warned that malign actors would be held accountable should they continue to threaten lives, the global economy, and the free flow of commerce in the region’s critical waterways. Despite this strong warning, attacks in the Red Sea have continued, including the launch of numerous missiles and one-way attack aerial vehicles against ships in the Red Sea on January 9, 2024, including U.S. and UK vessels. On January 10, 2024, the UN Security Council passed UNSCR 2722, which also condemned these attacks and demanded that they cease.

In response to continued illegal, dangerous, and destabilizing Houthi attacks against vessels, including commercial shipping, transiting the Red Sea, the armed forces of the United States and United Kingdom, with support from the Netherlands, Canada, Bahrain, and Australia, conducted joint strikes in accordance with the inherent right of individual and collective self-defense, consistent with the UN Charter, against a number of targets in Houthi-controlled areas of Yemen. These precision strikes were intended to disrupt and degrade the capabilities the Houthis use to threaten global trade and the lives of international mariners in one of the world’s most critical waterways.

The Houthis’ more than two dozen attacks on commercial vessels since mid-November constitute an international challenge. Today’s action demonstrated a shared commitment to freedom of navigation, international commerce, and defending the lives of mariners from illegal and unjustifiable attacks.

Our aim remains to de-escalate tensions and restore stability in the Red Sea, but let our message be clear: we will not hesitate to defend lives and protect the free flow of commerce in one of the world’s most critical waterways in the face of continued threats.

Cooking dinner at the moment but does that demonstrate support for the UK/us bombing action?

That's different to what I read earlier.

 

[jcdenton08]

We all know that Hamas as a military and/or political group are a bunch of arseholes who attacked innocent Israelis without warning. And they can have expected/known that Israel would respond.

Then we get the appalling loss of life in Gaza as Israel flatten civilian infrastructure, target schools and hospitals, forces people from their homes, treats prisoners like cattle at best, all the time some of their most prominent politicians talking of eradicating Gaza and its people etc etc etc..

If that is not bad enough we then see Israel targetting enemies in third party countries, Syria and Lebanon. Now we have the self appointed world policeman along with its little wannabee cousin striking at another group of people in there own land.

When you cut away the crap and take it down to facts and facts alone, who are the bad guys again, or at least the less good of the two sides?

Sadly the West isn't coming well out of this well. For Putin its a propaganda coup....

How? How isn’t the West coming out of this well?

If Britain right now was firing missiles into the civilian and military escort shipping of another sovereign nation from Portsmouth, would we not expect repercussions?

This is self-defence, clear as day. I really don’t understand any argument against which isn’t purely political.

 

[jcdenton08]

Cooking dinner at the moment but does that demonstrate support for the UK/us bombing action?

That's different to what I read earlier.

It says that they’ve been repeatedly warned to stop attacking international shipping in the Red Sea. Then two days ago a resolution was passed by the UN Security Council telling them to stop. Then they did it again the next day with a new attack on British and/or American shipping/naval ships.

Also note the joint statement aspect, showing international support.

 

[JJ McClure]

I guess the Iraq war did go through parliament so perhaps my faith in that process is misplaced.

Howeve I would like processes in place to make sure that this action is the correct one. Though the British parliament, the UN and the coalition set up for this purpose.

This way I will feel more confident of the window of bombing another country.

You seem pretty happy with the outcome, perhaps it will prove to be the right move. I am less confident about that.

As I say only time will tell on that front.

That'll be the UN with Russia and China as permanent members of its security council, good luck with finding any agreement there.

 

[nicko31]

How? How isn’t the West coming out of this well?

If Britain right now was firing missiles into the civilian and military escort shipping of another sovereign nation from Portsmouth, would we not expect repercussions?

This is self-defence, clear as day. I really don’t understand any argument against which isn’t purely political.

I'm not referring specifically to the defence of International shipping, I'm referring to the whole Israel / Gaza conflict.

 

[A1X]

I don’t have an issue with the strikes and the reasons for them. I do believe this should have been a Parliament decision and not a Government one. It would have led to a delay of, at a maximum, 24 hours with Parliament being recalled today.

 

[Is it PotG?]

I don’t have an issue with the strikes and the reasons for them. I do believe this should have been a Parliament decision and not a Government one. It would have led to a delay of, at a maximum, 24 hours with Parliament being recalled today.

Maybe the intel that was at hand was short lived and needed immediate action.

As Starmer said, he's happy so long as it is presented in Parliament later, which I'm sure it will.

 

[wellquickwoody]

How? How isn’t the West coming out of this well?

If Britain right now was firing missiles into the civilian and military escort shipping of another sovereign nation from Portsmouth, would we not expect repercussions?

This is self-defence, clear as day. I really don’t understand any argument against which isn’t purely political.

I get your point, but……

We have advanced weaponry that can take down drones etc, or so we are told. The west has a fleet of ships in the region to protect merchant vessels from piracy and hostage taking. And whilst these no doubt are ‘international’ waters, they are on someone else’s doorstep, not ours. Sure we would take umbrage at someone like China calling the shots in the English Channel?

But suppose we ignore that bit. How about the country that the US is supporting in all this launching attacks on other countries? How does that sit with the idea of sovereignty?

 

[beorhthelm]

I don’t have an issue with the strikes and the reasons for them. I do believe this should have been a Parliament decision and not a Government one. It would have led to a delay of, at a maximum, 24 hours with Parliament being recalled today.

we shouldnt need (and dont by anything other than polite convention) to consult parliament for a tactical strike on threats to shipping. this isn't what parliament is for, which is legislation.

 

[Kinky Gerbil]

I don’t have an issue with the strikes and the reasons for them. I do believe this should have been a Parliament decision and not a Government one. It would have led to a delay of, at a maximum, 24 hours with Parliament being recalled today.

Leader of the opposition was ok with it

24 hours in certain scenarios could be key, the Government should be able to act quickly in serious situations, parliament would have waived it through anyway.

 

[Zeberdi]

Maybe the intel that was at hand was short lived and needed immediate action.

I honestly think that very unlikely - see my post above and others before it. We have known full well that getting involved with a conflict with Houthis in the Red Sea would elicit an escalatory response from them.

The US has been on active duty protecting Israel in the Red Sea since at least 19th October, shooting down drones and Houthis ballistic missiles launched from Yemen to Israel, once Netanyahu declared he would obliterate Hamas.
Btw Houthis have been firing missiles and launching drones towards the Kingdom since Saudi got involved in Yemen’s civil war over 8 years ago - so it’s no secret where they operate from nor what capabilities they have.

we shouldnt need (and dont by anything other than polite convention) to consult parliament for a tactical strike on threats to shipping. this isn't what parliament is for, which is legislation.

One of the key roles of Parliament is to act as a check on the powers of the executive not just to rubber stamp legislation or have ‘polite conversation’ - we may not have a written constitution but successive Executive‘s attempts to bypass Parliament (in particular this Tory government with far reaching secondary legislation introduced through the back door) undermines one of the few means by which government can be held to account outside of a general election. It has been recognised that since 2011, the nature of armed conflict has changed and there are no clear beginnings or exit strategies now with the War in Terror. That makes it even more important even minor changes of engagement need some degree of Parliamentary scrutiny since conflict in the ME can potentially escalate into regional shitstorms with the ‘smallest’ of triggers.

This attack on Yemen may be to ‘protect’ US and British forces but I am under be no delusions, our forces need protecting because we are protecting our commercial shipping interests in the Red Sea which are now under an unmanageable threat because of Israel’s continued (and widely recognised as disproportionate) bombardment of Israel

I am also under no delusion that since Trump tore up the Iran Nuclear Treaty, inflamed the Arab world with his ‘Peace Plan and cosied up to Putin, our efforts to deal with increasingly radicalised jihadist groups in the region is time sensitive if we were to ultimately face Iran in a direct conflict.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Attacking the Houthis is self defence, pure and simple. They were issued with a cease and desist, they carried on, now they've been given the equivalent of a little tickle to allow them to see things more clearly.

Peaceful international shipping is being targeted by foreign terrorists. I'd be amazed if we DIDN'T react. It's not like we're carpet bombing Yemen or sending in ground troops.

 

[Zeberdi]

Attacking the Houthis is self defence, pure and simple. They were issued with a cease and desist, they carried on, now they've been given the equivalent of a little tickle to allow them to see things more clearly.

Peaceful international shipping is being targeted by foreign terrorists. I'd be amazed if we DIDN'T react. It's not like we're carpet bombing Yemen or sending in ground troops.

And you think we’d be in this situation with Iran backed Houthi rebels in the Red Sea if Israel wasn’t currently flattening Gaza and pushing nearly 2 million Gazans to the brink of starvation?

This crisis in the Red Sea started on 19 October when Houthis started firing rockets into Israel - we have subsequently become targets for intercepting those missile and its escalated from there. I’m not saying our response is wrong but to suggest this is an isolated ’attack’ fails to understand that this is an escalation of a war we are already involved in.