[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[aolstudios]

Let’s keep the Israeli hostages.. the babies, the children, the 18-year-old women etc.. in our hearts and minds too

Well, exactly

 

[Guinness Boy]

I have to say, neither of you have engaged with any of the points made, either by the posters or in the videos they have posted.

It appears that some people, when confronted with facts or opinions that oppose their own, simply resort to epithets and insults. It's not very intelligent or a particularly 'good look', in my opinion.

I think @Zeberdi is right to disengage with you two but I think it is to the detriment of this thread and this board in general. I think most people reading this thread will agree that his posts are thoughtful and well-researched.

You don't win an argument by shouting people down or bullying them off the board.

No one's winning an argument here.

The same four or five people are posting repeatedly and they've not yet once got the 'other side' to agree. It's like the mini-Brexit thread du jour. The IDF aren't going to pull out of the Gaza Strip because some bloke on a football site asks them nicely nor is anyone going to win the internet.

As stated before, if there's name calling and bullying going on it needs to be reported.

However, dismissing a source is entirely valid. Almost the whole board seem to be doing this on the Barton thread to almost unanimous approval.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I have to say, neither of you have engaged with any of the points made, either by the posters or in the videos they have posted.

It appears that some people, when confronted with facts or opinions that oppose their own, simply resort to epithets and insults. It's not very intelligent or a particularly 'good look', in my opinion.

I think @Zeberdi is right to disengage with you two but I think it is to the detriment of this thread and this board in general. I think most people reading this thread will agree that his posts are thoughtful and well-researched.

You don't win an argument by shouting people down or bullying them off the board.

Nobody's seeking to shout people down or bully them off the board. But IMHO they should be called out when they attempt to subtly steer the thread by swamping it with links and videos of their choosing. And as for that other guy who posts all those videos from something called Double Down News. I mean, really?

 

[thejackal]

No one's winning an argument here.

The same four or five people are posting repeatedly and they've not yet once got the 'other side' to agree. It's like the mini-Brexit thread du jour. The IDF aren't going to pull out of the Gaza Strip because some bloke on a football site asks them nicely nor is anyone going to win the internet.

As stated before, if there's name calling and bullying going on it needs to be reported.

However, dismissing a source is entirely valid. Almost the whole board seem to be doing this on the Barton thread to almost unanimous approval.

I completely agree with your first 3 statements. There are some things that some people are never going to agree on and, very obviously, this board can only influence the minds of the Brighton fans that frequent it.

However, I do think it's a bit lazy to dismiss sources based solely on personal bias. The whole point of a discussion board is an exchange of ideas. If someone refuses to listen to opposing ideas because they don't like who's presenting them, or they disagree with positions that source may have taken on other issues in the past, then why are they even posting on the thread?

I get my news from many sources from all over the world, both mainstream & independent. It doesn't mean I approve of what they all say but I don't dismiss them out of hand without reading them because I don't like what they've said in the past.

I haven't got the time to read all 22 pages of the Joey Barton thread but I'm not sure this is quite the same thing. Doubtless most people on here regard Joey Barton as a berk, on that we can agree too.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I completely agree with your first 3 statements. There are some things that some people are never going to agree on and, very obviously, this board can only influence the minds of the Brighton fans that frequent it.

However, I do think it's a bit lazy to dismiss sources based solely on personal bias. The whole point of a discussion board is an exchange of ideas. If someone refuses to listen to opposing ideas because they don't like who's presenting them, or they disagree with positions that source may have taken on other issues in the past, then why are they even posting on the thread?

I get my news from many sources from all over the world, both mainstream & independent. It doesn't mean I approve of what they all say but I don't dismiss them out of hand without reading them because I don't like what they've said in the past.

I haven't got the time to read all 22 pages of the Joey Barton thread but I'm not sure this is quite the same thing. Doubtless most people on here regard Joey Barton as a berk, on that we can agree too.

Sorry, all I was meaning about sources of reporting, videos etc is that there is value in both OR either dismissing the report or the source.

Almost every media outlet has an agenda and angle because they're after a particular market. In the US you know what you're getting with CNN and also Fox, they don't even hide it. Same with the Mail and Guardian here. And people on NSC routinely point out the biases of those organisations without losing the argument or resorting to ad hominem.

In this case, pointing out DDN's association with the Corbyn side of the argument sets the picture. He's never going to agree with the Israelis on anything. Taking a specific report, watching it and deconstructing it point by point is a far better intellectual exercise and might teach both the writer and reader something more, but it won't win a polarised argument and most people on here simply don't have the time for it.

 

[thejackal]

Sorry, all I was meaning about sources of reporting, videos etc is that there is value in both OR either dismissing the report or the source.

Almost every media outlet has an agenda and angle because they're after a particular market. In the US you know what you're getting with CNN and also Fox, they don't even hide it. Same with the Mail and Guardian here. And people on NSC routinely point out the biases of those organisations without losing the argument or resorting to ad hominem.

In this case, pointing out DDN's association with the Corbyn side of the argument sets the picture. He's never going to agree with the Israelis on anything. Taking a specific report, watching it and deconstructing it point by point is a far better intellectual exercise and might teach both the writer and reader something more, but it won't win a polarised argument and most people on here simply don't have the time for it.

Fair play, I can't really disagree with any of that.

 

[aolstudios]

Sorry, all I was meaning about sources of reporting, videos etc is that there is value in both OR either dismissing the report or the source.

Almost every media outlet has an agenda and angle because they're after a particular market. In the US you know what you're getting with CNN and also Fox, they don't even hide it. Same with the Mail and Guardian here. And people on NSC routinely point out the biases of those organisations without losing the argument or resorting to ad hominem.

In this case, pointing out DDN's association with the Corbyn side of the argument sets the picture. He's never going to agree with the Israelis on anything. Taking a specific report, watching it and deconstructing it point by point is a far better intellectual exercise and might teach both the writer and reader something more, but it won't win a polarised argument and most people on here simply don't have the time for it.

Exactly this

 

[thejackal]

Nobody's seeking to shout people down or bully them off the board. But IMHO they should be called out when they attempt to subtly steer the thread by swamping it with links and videos of their choosing. And as for that other guy who posts all those videos from something called Double Down News. I mean, really?

I honestly don't think anyone was trying to steer the thread in any direction, subtly or otherwise.

If you don't like the direction you perceive the thread is going in then why not post something meaningful and persuasive to convince others of your viewpoint?

 

[nicko31]

Really is a poundshop Fox News.

The anglosphere would be so much better without the Murdochs creating division.

In our own backyard their monopolisation is out of control.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I honestly don't think anyone was trying to steer the thread in any direction, subtly or otherwise.

If you don't like the direction you perceive the thread is going in then why not post something meaningful and persuasive to convince others of your viewpoint?

The wickedly savage events of 7th October speak for themselves really. Hamas got exactly the reaction they knew they would get from a hardline right wing Israeli government. And as always, the cowards then hide behind the skirts of women and the hospital beds of kids and let outraged global public opinion do the rest. Utterly despicable cowards

 

[Zeberdi]

No one's winning an argument here.

The same four or five people are posting repeatedly and they've not yet once got the 'other side' to agree.

Agree to what? That thousands of innocent Gazan civilians including mostly children and women are being killed in a response to the massacre? That extreme right wing Religious Zionists are driving the agenda in Gaza? That this is a tragic situation for all sides? That the massacre by Hamas and atrocities they committed were heinous? That Netanyahu’s government is not supported by the majority of Israelis and that Palestinians have been living under the harshest conditions of an illegal occupation for decades? That all Jews are not to blame and that all Palestinians do not support Hamas’s atrocities?


None of that is an opinion - it is fact.

I have yet to see in all these pages , those facts being disputed or a constructive argument being put forward that justifies how Palestinians have been treated for years and are being now both by Hamas or the IDF.

You seem to think this is a football match and it is a binary argument - It isn’t - there are rights and wrongs on ‘all sides’ with multiple protagonists. The people caught in the middle are what matters here as I have said all along - I find it tragic that a certain few NSCers are trying hard to move the thread away from an humanitarian perspective on what is happening. Personally as I have said frequently am not trying to ‘win’ an ‘argument’ - I have not once tried to do that - in fact I have repeatedly said there are wrongs and rights in every aspect of this issue and that as a Jewish person I feel that keenly.

. The IDF aren't going to pull out of the Gaza Strip because some bloke on a football site asks them nicely nor is anyone going to win the internet.

This is a worldwide debate - no one on this thread expects Israel to ‘pull out’ because of what is being said here and it is disingenuous to contract the discussions that have been had on this thread down to tropes like ‘no one is going to win the internet’. Discussion can been informative and valid without achieving a result otherwise you might as well say all discussion on internet forums are pointless.

As stated before, if there's name calling and bullying going on it needs to be reported.

They were and have been several times, the last time you jumped in with your moderation you then spent several pages arguing with other posters suggesting attacks on me were justified because my posts were too long or many.

However, dismissing a source is entirely valid

Questioning a source is valid of course but when it has absolutely nothing to do with that source’s position on the thread topic or the reason why it was used in the first place then it adds nothing to the debate to talk about work he has done on other areas of the world - Pilger’s reputation on other issues he wrote about may be questionable but on Palestine, he is still well regarded and is well respected - like Gideon Levy, years spent giving Palestinians a voice- like Banksy and other artists. If someone has an issues with the content of any video, fair enough but it dismissing videos and links without even watching them because they give a Palestinian perspective out of hand without any consideration of its content…or even reading some/any links that are posted as reference - that’s up to anyone to do but they can’t then complain they are not getting to put forward their PoV because someone is posting videos or links they dont like - all they are doing in that situation is trying to shut down what they perceive to be the other.

. Almost the whole board seem to be doing this on the Barton thread to almost unanimous approval.

I don’t know anything about that thread but as far as this one is concerned, these are too serious issues for people to be using it for point scoring, playground empire building or making frequently inappropriate use of emojis and off topic comments in an attempt to derail the thread. I’m no longer going to engage with anyone who does that / I’m not even going to bother to report them- others can decide how they feel about the contributions each poster is making without the mods needing to spell it out one way or another.

Certain people need to stop trying to polarise this into a two sided argument and creating straw arguments - it’s a fallacious approach to the issue and not what the majority of posters have been doing.

 

[thejackal]

The wickedly savage events of 7th October speak for themselves really. Hamas got exactly the reaction they knew they would get from a hardline right wing Israeli government. And as always, the cowards then hide behind the skirts of women and the hospital beds of kids and let outraged global public opinion do the rest. Utterly despicable cowards

With respect, none of that is factual, though, is it? Can you provide sources and quotes to back up what you say?

It's just your opinion, with some added invective. It's not a million miles from what you're accusing DDN of doing, in many respects.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

With respect, none of that is factual, though, is it? Can you provide sources and quotes to back up what you say?

It's just your opinion, with some added invective. It's not a million miles from what you're accusing DDN of doing, in many respects.

So the events of 7th October never happened then? Is that what you're saying?

 

[thejackal]

So the events of 7th October never happened then? Is that what you're saying?

No, obviously we can all agree that an attack happened on the 7th of October.

The points I would challenge are:

• Hamas got exactly the reaction they knew they would get
• The cowards then hide behind the skirts of women and the hospital beds of kids
• Utterly despicable cowards

This is just opinion and invective.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

No, obviously we can all agree that an attack happened on the 7th of October.

The points I would challenge are:

• Hamas got exactly the reaction they knew they would get
• The cowards then hide behind the skirts of women and the hospital beds of kids
• Utterly despicable cowards

This is just opinion and invective.

No, obviously we can all agree that an attack happened on the 7th of October.

The points I would challenge are:

• Hamas got exactly the reaction they knew they would get
• The cowards then hide behind the skirts of women and the hospital beds of kids
• Utterly despicable cowards

This is just opinion and invective.

Allow me to add in the wording that you seem to have conveniently left out of your first bullet point: 'Hamas got exactly the reaction they knew they would get from a hardline right wing Israeli government'

 

[thejackal]

Allow me to add in the wording that you seem to have conveniently left out of your first bullet point: 'Hamas got exactly the reaction they knew they would get from a hardline right wing Israeli government'

That doesn't really change the substance of my post, though.

I'm not sure anyone knew exactly what the response was going to be, whether the Israeli govt is hardline right wing or otherwise. I, for one, didn't anticipate this level of retribution.

Let's face it, none of us have any idea if this factored into Hamas' plans or not. It's just unsubstantiated opinion.

I reckon if people spent more time listening to the other side's point of view then they might have a better understanding of what drives the other side to such extreme and barbaric acts.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

That doesn't really change the substance of my post, though.

I'm not sure anyone knew exactly what the response was going to be, whether the Israeli govt is hardline right wing or otherwise. I, for one, didn't anticipate this level of retribution.

Let's face it, none of us have any idea if this factored into Hamas' plans or not. It's just unsubstantiated opinion.

I reckon if people spent more time listening to the other side's point of view then they might have a better understanding of what drives the other side to such extreme and barbaric acts.

At least we agree on something

 

[armchairclubber]

That doesn't really change the substance of my post, though.

I'm not sure anyone knew exactly what the response was going to be, whether the Israeli govt is hardline right wing or otherwise. I, for one, didn't anticipate this level of retribution.

Let's face it, none of us have any idea if this factored into Hamas' plans or not. It's just unsubstantiated opinion.

I reckon if people spent more time listening to the other side's point of view then they might have a better understanding of what drives the other side to such extreme and barbaric acts.

Agreed.

 

[armchairclubber]

Let’s keep the Israeli hostages.. the babies, the children, the 18-year-old women etc.. in our hearts and minds too

Agreed.

 

[armchairclubber]

@aolstudios could I politely request that you also block me and do not react to my posts.

For the second time.