[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Just circling back to this point for a second.

You may pour scorn on her statement but I think it's vitally important that at least someone in Parliament has the courage to read this opinion into Hansard.

We have 650 members of Parliament. The vast majority of them are spineless, self-serving berks, imo.

I agree with her sentiment and her right to express it.

I regret that I have upset a poster on here with whom, I suspect, I am in 95% agreement on most issues.

I want to see a swift end to the genocide (as it has now become). I suspect that Starmer's stated aim to quietly press America into action is the best we can do, because without America's action Bibi will carry on until everyone is dead or till he is booted out by a general election.

It isn't that I want to pour scorn on anyone's position. Its that I have seen, over the decades, sincere and righteous people campaigning for just causes, and I have seen those campaigns fail. I remember going on a massive anti nuclear march in 1980 or 81, and I thought we had won the argument, but nothing changed. And I remember my pal's daughter absolutely aghast when Corbyn didn't win the last general election because in her echo chamber it was an absolute certainty he would win.

But I am not suggesting that people not campaign. What I'm saying is that campaigning, and feeling and seeing the widespread support for the campaign, can give a false impression that one is making a difference, winning hearts and minds, and paving the way for change. We are dealing with Bibi here. I may not have scorn for Sultana's statement but Bibi, were he to be made aware of it, certainly would. I appreciate that you consider that this is not the point, and that simply having a Hansard record of a person's view is enough. I don't. I want real change. And I don't know how this can be achieved.

So I am getting no comfort reading statements by different voices, condemning Israel. It is incredibly easy to make condemnatory statements and this is useless when all it does is give one a false impression one is making a difference. Albeit I would be more than delighted if it transpired that I am wrong, and all these small acts of condemnation are paving the way for change.

Lastly, I have been frustrated by the focus on who (which politician) is making condemnatory statements, and that has triggered my badly-received comments. I want to see an end to the genocide as much as anyone, and apologize for inadvertently upsetting anyone with my vituperation.

 

[armchairclubber]

Just circling back to this point for a second.

You may pour scorn on her statement but I think it's vitally important that at least someone in Parliament has the courage to read this opinion into Hansard.

We have 650 members of Parliament. The vast majority of them are spineless, self-serving berks, imo.

Hear Hear.

I hope we're not gonna have more Starmer related bollocks. At least someone had said they would refrain.

 

[thejackal]

I agree with her sentiment and her right to express it.

I regret that I have upset a poster on here with whom, I suspect, I am in 95% agreement on most issues.

I want to see a swift end to the genocide (as it has now become). I suspect that Starmer's stated aim to quietly press America into action is the best we can do, because without America's action Bibi will carry on until everyone is dead or till he is booted out by a general election.

It isn't that I want to pour scorn on anyone's position. Its that I have seen, over the decades, sincere and righteous people campaigning for just causes, and I have seen those campaigns fail. I remember going on a massive anti nuclear march in 1980 or 81, and I thought we had won the argument, but nothing changed. And I remember my pal's daughter absolutely aghast when Corbyn didn't win the last general election because in her echo chamber it was an absolute certainty he would win.

But I am not suggesting that people not campaign. What I'm saying is that campaigning, and feeling and seeing the widespread support for the campaign, can give a false impression that one is making a difference, winning hearts and minds, and paving the way for change. We are dealing with Bibi here. I may not have scorn for Sultana's statement but Bibi, were he to be made aware of it, certainly would. I appreciate that you consider that this is not the point, and that simply having a Hansard record of a person's view is enough. I don't. I want real change. And I don't know how this can be achieved.

So I am getting no comfort reading statements by different voices, condemning Israel. It is incredibly easy to make condemnatory statements and this is useless when all it does is give one a false impression one is making a difference. Albeit I would be more than delighted if it transpired that I am wrong, and all these small acts of condemnation are paving the way for change.

Lastly, I have been frustrated by the focus on who (which politician) is making condemnatory statements, and that has triggered my badly-received comments. I want to see an end to the genocide as much as anyone, and apologize for inadvertently upsetting anyone with my vituperation.

Yes that's fair enough although I think saying something is always better than saying nothing at all. 6 months ago the Palestinian cause had been mostly forgotten again. Even Norman Finkelstein, the world's #1 documenter of Israel's atrocities against the Palestinians, had all but given up on it.

I spent time in the 1980s and early 1990s organising against the apartheid regime in South Africa. That movement didn't end in failure although it should be noted that it was the entire world's opposition and mainly economic reasons that eventually saw that lot get the boot.

 

[Zeberdi]

I spent time in the 1980s and early 1990s organising against the apartheid regime in South Africa. That movement didn't end in failure although it should be noted that it was the entire world's opposition and mainly economic reasons that eventually saw that lot get the boot.

I think SA is an excellent example of how globalisation of public opposition to a regime’s treatment of its civilian population can mobilise political change. I remember organising benefit gigs and other fundraising events, growing up in a family that refused to buy SA goods etc. I have no doubt that while popular condemnation and lone MPs standing up in Parliament may not directly change the internal organisation of foreign states, it can certainly send a message to those living under inhumane conditions or suffering from human rights abuses that they are not alone, that the world is watching - one of the first and foremost effective tactics of a bully is to isolate the victim - I believe that breaking through that isolation with public protest condemnation that victims can see on TV/social media etc can be instrumental in precipitating change and can undermine the credibility of leaders on the world stage. I also think the more global the public support, the more it helps to deradicalise the methods by which change can be achieved - ie boycott not bombs.

Divestment and boycott of goods only work though if the public is on board with why they are implemented and comply through their shopping choices - hence the value of debate and demonstration. The Boycott Movement was at the absolute heart of the Anti-Apartheid Movement SA for decades. I think though when it comes to Israel, we are a long way from a situation where the US or UK would apply official sanctions or formalise boycotts of Israeli goods - it is still proving problematic doing that against Russia let alone against a country that is regarded as our greatest ally in the ME - but also Palestinians need something a lot faster than for allowing months before Israel feels the pinch of any economic effects of boycotts and sanctions - an immediate arms embargo would be more effective (but just as unlikely) .

Boycotts and sanctions helped rid South Africa of apartheid – is Israel next in line?

The comparison rankles supporters of Israel but the growing Palestinian Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanctions movement draws on the struggle to isolate racist South Africa

www.theguardian.com

 

[armchairclubber]

 

[Zeberdi]

WARNING The video in the post above has some very distressing live video of dead and wounded children - I would recommend listen rather than watch if it is likely to upset you.

 

[armchairclubber]

WARNING The video in the post above has some very distressing live video of dead and wounded children - I would recommend listen rather than watch if it is likely to upset you.

My apologies Zeberdi, I should have perhaps given warning.

I find DDN as honest and reliable a source of journalism as I think we are likely to find, though with video the truth can unfortunately be seen graphically as well as heard.

 

[aolstudios]

My apologies Zeberdi, I should have perhaps given warning.

I find DDN as honest and reliable a source of journalism as I think we are likely to find, though with video the truth can unfortunately be seen graphically as well as heard.

I'd suggest, as does everyone I know outside the Corbynite bubble, that DDN is about as partial & unreliable a source of journalism as it's possible to find.

 

[armchairclubber]

@aolstudios could I politely request that you also block me and do not react to my posts.

 

[aolstudios]

@aolstudios could I politely request that you also block me and do not react to my posts.

Because I disagreed with you?
Check out DDN's contributors. It's pretty much a roll call of anyone of note who worked for Corbyn, put him in power, lauded Hamas/Hezbollah or was in thrall to Putin over the years. If you can't cope with polite debate why are you on here? Serious question

 

[armchairclubber]

 

[Billy the Fish]

I find DDN as honest and reliable a source of journalism

Yeah, I could've guessed that!

 

[Zeberdi]

My apologies Zeberdi, I should have perhaps given warning.

I find DDN as honest and reliable a source of journalism as I think we are likely to find, though with video the truth can unfortunately be seen graphically as well as heard.

No worries.

John Pilger (RIP) one of the most respected Western war correspondents very much known for his pro-Palestine views but likewise probably unacceptable to those who only want to see the conflict from a US/UK pro-Israel perspective talks in depth about how the West portrays the conflict and as I mentioned above, how all journalists are targeted by the IDF now. An interview he did after the outbreak of violence in May 2021.

 

[armchairclubber]

I'm afraid that's not how this forum works. No user can force another user not to reply to their posts, nor force them to put you on ignore. A mod shouldn't, imo, enable such a request either (though I see that I do have the ability to force him to ignore you).

Instead, I'd suggest that you ignore any user whose posts you don't wish to see. If you don't know how to do that, I can force you to ignore him if you wish.

@Guinness Boy @hans kraay fan club FYI

No that's OK thanks. I appear to have that particular 'monkey off my back'. As previously mentioned, I didnt really find his campaigning appropriate on this thread as there are others on the board for that. Cheers

 

[aolstudios]

No worries.

John Pilger (RIP) one of the most respected Western war correspondents very much known for his pro-Palestine views but likewise probably unacceptable to those who only want to see the conflict from a US/UK pro-Israel perspective talks in depth about how the West portrays the conflict and as I mentioned above, how all journalists are targeted by the IDF now. An interview he did after the outbreak of violence in May 2021.

Sorry, but his energetically pro Assad, Milosovic, Putin etc polemics have somewhat ruined that early reputation.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/05/john-pilger-journalist-reporting-bosnia-cambodia-serbia/

 

[Guinness Boy]

@aolstudios could I politely request that you also block me and do not react to my posts.

I’m sure this will end in more thinly veiled threats off board, but this isn’t how NSC works.

If you post an opinion or source you should expect it to be challenged. It’s the whole raison d’etre of a message board.

 

[armchairclubber]

I’m sure this will end in more thinly veiled threats off board, but this isn’t how NSC works.

If you post an opinion or source you should expect it to be challenged. It’s the whole raison d’etre of a message board.

I beg your pardon?

 

[Zeberdi]

Sorry, but his energetically pro Assad, Milosovic, Putin etc polemics have somewhat ruined that early reputation.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/01/05/john-pilger-journalist-reporting-bosnia-cambodia-serbia/

You really can’t bear that there is an alternative perspective on any of this can you?

Any time anyone posts any links to what might be considered a Palestinian point of view you have a hissy fit and accuse them of bias or, as per most of your contributions on this thread, accuse them of being anti-semitic or supporting terrorism - or simply troll their answers with laughter emojis.

John Pilger was a very well respected journalist because he did exactly that - spoke up for those who were oppressed, under occupation or threatened with genocide despite doing so while most MSM was looking at the world through the lenses of imperialistic cultural biases..

Try an get outside the bubble of your western bias and consider what life is like for the ordinary Palestinian in Gaza at the moment- and yes, I know it was a terrible massacre, we have said so repeatedly….this genocide is happening because of a US/UK bias in supporting Israel as much as anything else.

Like I’ve said before, by the time those that can do something to stop genocide actually accept or even realise what is happening it is often too late to save the victims.

 

[aolstudios]

You really can’t bear that there is an alternative perspective on any of this can you?

Any time anyone posts any links to what might be considered a Palestinian point of view you have a hissy fit and accuse them of bias or, as per most of your contributions on this thread, accuse them of being anti-semitic or supporting terrorism.

John Pilger was a very well respected journalist because he did exactly that - spoke up for those who were oppressed, under occupation or threatened with genocide despite doing so while most MSM was looking at the world through the lenses of imperialistic cultural biases..

Try an get outside the bubble of your western bias and consider what life is like for the ordinary Palestinian in Gaza at the moment- and yes, I know it was a terrible massacre, we have said so repeatedly….this genocide is happening because of a US/UK bias in supporting Israel as much as anything else.

Like I’ve said before, by the time those that can do something to stop genocide actually accept or even realise what is happening it is often too late to save the victims.

My point had nothing to do with his view on Palestine. It was that his work for most of the last 30 plus years has utterly tarnished his early reputation. He's been about as well respected as George Galloway or Alex Jones for decades, due to his enthusiastic cheering on of Milosovic, Asaad & Putin, among others. Interesting that you chose not to address this at all, simply attacking me & what you presume to know I feel

 

[Zeberdi]

My point had nothing to do with his view on Palestine.

Then why make it in response to an interview I posted about Palestine on a thread that is discussing Palestine ffs

His views on Palestine are widely respected and were quite prophetic too.

Ps I see you are back to using laughter emojis in response to comments you don’t like - @Bozza warned you about that last week.