[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

As you are absolving Starmer in post after post, I feel it only right to remind you that no peace can ever be negotiated without both sides laying down their arms. The most recent settlement I'm aware of was the Good Friday Agreement. Before the talks, the negotiations, the Treaty etc first came the ceasefire. Both Nationalist and Unionist terrorist groups had to agree to a ceasefire before the talks could even start.

In some ways it is perhaps now a moot point as the extreme right-wing Israeli government has made it absolutely clear that it is not going to stop the slaughter in Gaza. But let's not pretend that Starmer is doing the right thing by refusing to call for a ceasefire. If he wants "proper talks for a long term solution" he has to understand that a ceasefire has to come first.

I'm not sure how you reached the conclusion that it is Sunak - but not Starmer - who stands alongside Israel and the US when the leaders of both main political parties in this country are taking exactly the same stance.


And meanwhile, thousands of innocent Palestinian children continue to die.

<sigh>

OK, then. It's all Starmer's fault. If only he had demanded an immediate ceasefire by Israel, the . . . . oh, ah, as you go on to say it would have made no difference.

What do you want exactly? Starmer shouting at America to jolly well tell Israel to jolly well stop their killing spree? Well you won't get it. What about Corbyn back? Or another 5 years of Sunk?

I am very much an art of the possible sort, not a student protesting type, lurching about demanding this and that. One of my brothers has been and will be back in London, lending his support to the Palestinians. But.....meanwhile thousands of innocent Palestinian children continue to die. Despite all his efforts.

Oh. But if only I joined in, condemning Labour and waving a Palestinian flag in Trafalgar square it would all stop. Instead I just keep absolving the evil Starmer on post after post. I am the great absolver.

f***'s sake.

I am content with this:

Keir Starmer statement – The Labour Party

The end of the cessation of hostilities in Gaza is deeply concerning, I urge all sides not to squander progress made over the last week. All sides must work for a return to cessation that would allow for the release of more hostages, provide much needed time and space to tackle the humanitarian...

labour.org.uk

 

[armchairclubber]

Incorrect.

Several right-wing members of the Knesset and Israeli govt have called for the eradication of all Palestinians and the total confiscation of all occupied territory. The former is known as genocide, and the latter as a war crime. Neither is permissible under international law, yet some in the Israeli govt have called for exactly that.

My guess is that the only thing stopping them is that the whole world is watching.

I'm not sure that's stopping them, they're making a f***ing job of it.

 

[thejackal]

I'm not sure that's stopping them, they're making a f***ing good job of it.

True but given the history of Israel's 'mowing the lawn' operations, you can only imagine how much worse it would be if no-one were watching.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What's the death ratio, Israeli bombs v Hamas rockets?

I would imagine that Israel smites at a ratio of at least ten to one. But what of it?

 

[aolstudios]

Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq x 2 (lesser percentage of civilians killed when compared to population in all cases).

'Casualties' for this war come directly (& mysteriously, instantly) from Hamas. Who neglect to count anyone as military

 

[thejackal]

Casualties on the Palestinian side are artificially suppressed because nobody is counting the missing and/or those buried under tons of rubble. The real figure will no doubt be higher:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-many-palestinians-have-died-gaza-war-how-will-counting-continue-2023-12-06/

"Our monitoring suggests that the numbers provided by the Ministry of Health may be under-reporting as they do not include fatalities who did not reach hospitals or may be lost under the rubble," the U.N. human rights office spokesperson said.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Incorrect.

Several right-wing members of the Knesset and Israeli govt have called for the eradication of all Palestinians and the total confiscation of all occupied territory. The former is known as genocide, and the latter as a war crime. Neither is permissible under international law, yet some in the Israeli govt have called for exactly that.

My guess is that the only thing stopping them is that the whole world is watching.

It really is a stupid exercise now. They haven't 'committed' to genocide, but instead kill relatively indiscriminately while destroying infrastructure. Looks like genocide to me. What happens when Israel decide they have done 'enough'? What is 'enough'? Are they seriously not going to stop until every member of Hamas is dead? They will have to kill everyone (all the adult males, at least) to achieve that end. Then how is Gaza rebuilt? Will the survivors be blockaded and left to die of disease? It looks like a grotesque act of bullying, now.

And yet, if Israel does stop, Hamas will just regroup, rinse and repeat. They refuse to engage with a ceasefire themselves, and maintain their commitment to keeping Jewish hostages. Hamas really is like the little guy who keeps attacking the big guy, and never gives up, and eventually ends up being killed.

The only solution is for America to force Israel to stop and then force Israel and Hamas to have talks. Or maybe force the Palestinians to first elect a new government. There is going to have to be a lot of forcing for there to be a workable solution. Not going to happen, is it?

Meanwhile I imagine Israel will cease when Gaza is in ruins, and the next time Hamas or its successors kick off again, the population will again be greatly reduced by what will be nothing less than more genocide and more war crime.

I have no suggestion for a workable solution, and will very certainly not be waving a flag in Trafalgar square in the hope that Sunk can be persuaded to launch the British Navy, attack Israel, and rescue the Palestinians from their fate. Sorry to sound facetious but does anyone have the remotest semblance of a solution to all this? All I see is frustration and the occasional bit of blaming (or one side or another, based on one's historical prejudice). That's rubbish, frankly.

 

[thejackal]

It really is a stupid exercise now. They haven't 'committed' to genocide, but instead kill relatively indiscriminately while destroying infrastructure. Looks like genocide to me. What happens when Israel decide they have done 'enough'? What is 'enough'? Are they seriously not going to stop until every member of Hamas is dead? They will have to kill everyone (all the adult males, at least) to achieve that end. Then how is Gaza rebuilt? Will the survivors be blockaded and left to die of disease? It looks like a grotesque act of bullying, now.

And yet, if Israel does stop, Hamas will just regroup, rinse and repeat. They refuse to engage with a ceasefire themselves, and maintain their commitment to keeping Jewish hostages. Hamas really is like the little guy who keeps attacking the big guy, and never gives up, and eventually ends up being killed.

The only solution is for America to force Israel to stop and then force Israel and Hamas to have talks. Or maybe force the Palestinians to first elect a new government. There is going to have to be a lot of forcing for there to be a workable solution. Not going to happen, is it?

Meanwhile I imagine Israel will cease when Gaza is in ruins, and the next time Hamas or its successors kick off again, the population will again be greatly reduced by what will be nothing less than more genocide and more war crime.

I have no suggestion for a workable solution, and will very certainly not be waving a flag in Trafalgar square in the hope that Sunk can be persuaded to launch the British Navy, attack Israel, and rescue the Palestinians from their fate. Sorry to sound facetious but does anyone have the remotest semblance of a solution to all this? All I see is frustration and the occasional bit of blaming (or one side or another, based on one's historical prejudice). That's rubbish, frankly.

Yes, I do have a solution. The solution is the UN resolution calling for a Palestinian state that, every year for decades, is voted FOR by the entire world but AGAINST by Israel (and occasionally, under pressure, by certain US allies) and VETOED by the USA.

It's literally the whole world on one side, and Israel and the USA on the other.

 

[thejackal]

Anyway, it's almost footy time lads.

Peace and love to all of you, as us peacenik snowflakes like to say.

Time for a low-alcohol beverage

 

[Eeyore]

How convenient. As with Corbyn, an Antisemites' charter

I think it's important that when you band about accusations of racism they are substantiated.

I have seen no racism in this thread. But that is not to say I am correct.

Can you let me/us know what you consider as racism towards Jews ? I say you because you would doubtless be able to find individual examples across many organisations. I would say Brighton fans are not racist, but you could probably find an example at a match on some date. I would say the Labour Party is not by essence racist towards Jews and never was, but you could probably find examples (the Labour Party has actually expelled Jews for being racist- against Jews). The problem is that a lot of what I saw was not racist, but had been weaponised as such.

It brings me back to my original points about this whole sad situation. Instead of trying to find ways to rally for securing peace, those who report and comment on the conflict seem mostly interested in drawing further lines and fuelling their own prejudice. If you are not for Israel you must be against it. But this was never the case for many. They were just against persecution and oppression. Like the folk I've seen in here.

Sometimes I feel, as I move into my later years, that this whole experience of life has been spent watching some strange cinemtaic reel of extremes. Like a kid standing in the playground of his new school watching the whole yard erupting into fights and bundles and just wanting find somone to play a friendly game of marbles with.

And that's the new world we live in, or maybe the old one too. Extremes (the media, politicians, nationalists) fighting for their agendas and pieces of ground whilst others just watch in bewiderment.

20,000 or so folk are dead. Mostly women and the very same kids who wanted to play marbles. But I'm told Israel has taken great care. And folk still treat it like a grand video game, some firing the harshest insults to see which ones land best, and others doing the real shooting.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yes, I do have a solution. The solution is the UN resolution calling for a Palestinian state that, every year for decades, is voted FOR by the entire world but AGAINST by Israel (and occasionally, under pressure, by certain US allies) and VETOED by the USA.

It's literally the whole world on one side, and Israel and the USA on the other.

That isn't a solution, is it. A solution is something that creates a resolution - something happens and the problem ceases. You are simply describing something that happens. It is no more a solution than standing in Trafalgar square and singing 'O, Jeremy Corbyn' is a solution.

 

[thejackal]

That isn't a solution, is it. A solution is something that creates a resolution - something happens and the problem ceases. You are simply describing something that happens. It is no more a solution than standing in Trafalgar square and singing 'O, Jeremy Corbyn' is a solution.

I'm not so sure about that.

The UN resolution, once finally agreed to by Israel, would be implemented, thus creating a solution.

It may take generations for the pain and suspicion to dissipate but eventually a solution would be there.

This is literally the two state solution that's been discussed for decades.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm not so sure about that.

The UN resolution, once finally agreed to by Israel, would be implemented, thus creating a solution.

It may take generations for the pain and suspicion to dissipate but eventually a solution would be there.

This is literally the two state solution that's been discussed for decades.

I detect a small flaw in your plan. Two in fact.

 

[thejackal]

I detect a small flaw in your plan. Two in fact.

Well yes, exactly.

Logically, therefore, Israel is clearly the barrier to a solution.

 

[Zeberdi]

Things could escalate with Hezbollah - quite a significant development I think particularly in West Bank possibly increasing hostilities over border into to Syria and Lebanon.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-aircraft-tanks-step-up-strikes-it-plans-reduce-troops-2024-01-02/

Hamas deputy leader killed in Beirut blast - BBC News

Saleh al-Arouri is the most senior Hamas figure killed since the Israel-Hamas war began in October.

www.bbc.co.uk

Gaza latest: 'Terror and confusion' in Rafah, as charity says no humanitarian aid getting in - but IDF says key crossing is open

No aid is getting into Gaza after 48 hours of "chaos", a British charity says. However, the IDF insists a key crossing is open. Earlier, Israel captured the Gaza side of the Rafah border crossing, in a military operation which comes after Hamas accepted an Egypt-Qatar-led ceasefire deal.

news.sky.com

 

[armchairclubber]

Well yes, exactly.

Logically, therefore, Israel is clearly the barrier to a solution.

And that is why I've been in agreement with sanctions being called for against Israel. As previously posted with calls for the suspension of British arms trade with Israel.

Sunak and Starmer are not on board.

UK can do more and diplomacy could take a different course before things escalate further and as they have been escalating for weeks.

 

[thejackal]

And that is why I've been in agreement with sanctions being called for against Israel. As previously posted with calls for the suspension of British arms trade with Israel.

Sunak and Starmer are not on board.

UK can do more and diplomacy could take a different course before things escalate further and as they have been escalating for weeks.

Unfortunately, the UK arms industry is waaaaaaaaay too profitable and powerful for that to ever happen.

The UK has about 15% of the entire global arms trade, worth billions. It's one of our biggest industries. Most of our sales go to the Middle East and most of that to Saudi.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

Unfortunately, the UK arms industry is waaaaaaaaay too profitable and powerful for that to ever happen.

The UK has about 15% of the entire global arms trade, worth billions. It's one of our biggest industries. Most of our sales go to the Middle East and most of that to Saudi.

Well, I’m sure we can all be proud with that!
the way Israel have gone about this is just dreadful, even down to a lot of their politicians wearing black shirts. They’ve been bleating about the loss of 200 soldiers - Jesus, how many innocent civilians have been killed?

 

[thejackal]

Well, I’m sure we can all be proud with that!
the way Israel have gone about this is just dreadful, even down to a lot of their politicians wearing black shirts. They’ve been bleating about the loss of 200 soldiers - Jesus, how many innocent civilians have been killed?

tens of thousands :-(

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Well, I’m sure we can all be proud with that!
the way Israel have gone about this is just dreadful, even down to a lot of their politicians wearing black shirts. They’ve been bleating about the loss of 200 soldiers - Jesus, how many innocent civilians have been killed?

Including the innocent civilians savagely slaughtered on 7th October? Or is that just bleating too?