aolstudios
Well-known member
They filmed, shared them & boasted they'd repeat them.
No one could *honestly* doubt they happened. But some on here are.
Repeatedly
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[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel
- Thread starter Greenbag50
- Start date
No one could *honestly* doubt they happened. But some on here are.
Repeatedly
Sorry, are you saying they filmed, shared and boasted about repeating the alleged sexual assaults? I don't think they did.
Billy the Fish
Technocrat
Are we in some kind of weird parallel universe?
So the BBC, CNN, NYT, amongst others, are printing unsubstantiated claims.
But don't worry everyone, ignore those respected organisations because @Zeberdi has been on the Internet and found some proper evidence on a Palestinian only website called Electronic Infatada.
NYT investigation.
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BadFish
Huge Member
- Oct 19, 2003
- 17,184
It's a weird parallel universe where someone is personally attacked for asking for further evidence of something a news paper article posted as 'claims'. I may have missed zeberdi drawing any kind of conclusion about this stuff but from what I saw he was simply asking for more information.
Whether the claims were true or not, my point was that the personal attacks and accusation on a poster asking for more information were way beyond the Pail and totally unnecessary. Surely the civilised and logical response was to provide the extra evidence requested?
Yeah, I haven't seen @Zeberdi making any claims on this topic - although this statement can be proven wrong if anyone can provide any evidence showing these claims.
I thought the Electronic Intifada was posted to provide another perspective from the Palestinian side. I have read some of their articles and found them very insightful, albeit it is up to the reader to decide their reliability - likewise with BBC articles, etc.
BadFish
Huge Member
- Oct 19, 2003
- 17,184
I expect you'll get some laughing emojis instead of evidence of deberdi supposed claims.
Anyway as I said these posters are best ignored as they don't add much to the discussion.
Billy the Fish
Technocrat
Please explain what you mean by extra evidence?
Yes, the laughing (mocking) emojis from @aolstudios and @cjd seem to now be commonplace on (what I thought was intended to be) a serious thread.
I do have suspicions that both accounts are being controlled by the same user.
I've not really paid attention to use of emojis, but if I see people using laughing emojis in a way I determine is mocking or similar, then I will act as per my earlier warning.
Again: no apologies/reasons/appeals will be listened to.
Act in good faith if you wish to retain access to this thread, and similar on NSC.
...and I'll add "See if I can stop selected users from being able to use emojis" to my to-do list.
Yes, yes I can.
Greenbag50
Well-known member
- Jun 1, 2016
- 387
- Thread starter
- #3,532
I think that is a very reasonable position.
As the OP, if I didn’t start this thread, someone else would have.
I think to have the freedom to debate these very sensitive geo-political subjects is something we should be proud of being able to do in the UK freely, without state or Government interference or control.
Mindful of some of the countries/ cultures we are discussing, the citizens of these countries may not be afforded this right and are prosecuted for it, without any rule of law in attendance.
We should be thankful we live in such a country where freedom of speech is protected and we should, as a people be grateful we live in such a country where this is possible. Currently.
armchairclubber
Well-known member
Perhaps I can post this again now without the giggling.
Two weeks on. Thousands more dead.
Two weeks on. Thousands more dead.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,978
On the contrary, I simply highlighted that there seems to be a distinct lack of evidence for some of the claims. EI is not a ‘Palestinian only’ website in the sense it is aimed at Palestinians, it’s audience is broad, it is a fact finding organisation that tried to provide an objective Palestinian perspective on issues where that perspective is largely ignored - it has been used by major news organisations as a source and has won awards for it’s commitment to human rights.
This is their website
Opinion and analysis
electronicintifada.net
As for other MSM sources - I did not say they should be ‘ignored’ or debunked - I have simply said their access to source material has been largely controlled and provided by the Israeli Government and interviews with inherently biased witnesses... and I also agreed there were probably incidences of sexual violence. The claim made by Israel however that this was a systematic tool of terror perpetrated by Hamas on 7th October may possibly be open to question so needs a full independent inquiry.
I posted links and quotes from Npr and Reuters News agencies, both highly respected in global news media, less hyperbolic or morally outraged in their tone of reporting current affairs than many news sources and both independent news agencies - they said they could not verify all the accounts. I detailed the problematic evidentiary issues raised both by Israel and the NYT and other News outlets too so not just EI..
As I also quoted from the Reuters link above, Israel has said they are not willing to work with the UN commission of inquiry because they say “it is biased” (presumably because they are concurrently investigating Israel for genocide). A UN ‘serious and impartial investigation’ ( that Hamas is calling for) might undermine any systemic rape narratives that can help Israel revitalise demonisation of Hamas as a justification of the war in Gaza - at a time when international resistance to Israel’s destruction of Gaza and the mass indiscriminate killing of thousands of children and women is becoming increasingly problematic for Netanyahu’s leadership and agenda in Gaza.
Because of that potential conflict of interest, the claims Israel is making need to be critically analysed from all sides and any outcome based on a broad range of independent resources.
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sydney
tinky ****in winky
give us a clue...?
sydney
tinky ****in winky
doesn't really follow does it....
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,978
Yes - exactly this. Very much in line with what Volker Turk, the United Nations high commissioner for human rights has also stated in a press conference in December:
‘Independent investigation needed
Meanwhile, Turk highlighted that Israel itself had not responded to his repeated requests for access to investigate the allegations independently.
"We take the allegations extremely seriously," he said, but "you need to go into quite some detailed examination of whether it's premeditated, whether it was widespread, systematic".
"I'm not in a position to confirm this."
He stressed that for weeks he had "asked the Israeli authorities... to deploy a team, my team, to monitor, document, investigate the issues of the horrific attacks on Israelis".
"I've repeated this call and I hope it will be heard but so far, I haven't received a response."
Even if access is denied, Turk said that "we will find other ways and means to talk to whoever we need to talk to … Atrocious forms of sexual violence need to be thoroughly investigated, and we need to make sure that justice is served," he said.
"That's what we owe the victims."’
UN seeks Israel access for Hamas sexual violence investigation
The UN rights chief voiced deep concern on Wednesday over allegations of sexual violence by Hamas militants during their October 7 attack, calling on Israel to allow his team in to investigate.
www.france24.com
Edit - A far left perspective
How the media lied about beheaded babies to ‘justify’ Israeli war crimes
Western journalists have done it before
socialistworker.co.uk
And a Jewish independent non-profit on information gathering before the IDF subsequently claimed to have evidence of systematic rape
How Biden condemned Hamas for rape before the IDF officially confirmed it happened
The Israeli military said they have no evidence of rape claims shared by President Joe Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu.
forward.com
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Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 70,587
Sorry @Bozza and mods if this besmirches your edict for the thread. But this guy does not post on this thread in the manner of a normal poster on this site. This is something else. Half a dozen links and a thousand word treatise every time he posts? I mean, really? We're clearly being steered in a particular direction by a particular entity. Please feel free to ban me from this thread for pointing out what should be blatantly manipulative red flags. And, to clarify, this is not an 'ad hominem' attack - to use his favourite phrase - on the poster in question, it's an attack on the entity he is posting on behalf ofYes - exactly this. Very much in line with what Volker Turk, the United Nations high commissioner for human rights has also stated in a press conference in December:
‘Independent investigation needed
Meanwhile, Turk highlighted that Israel itself had not responded to his repeated requests for access to investigate the allegations independently.
"We take the allegations extremely seriously," he said, but "you need to go into quite some detailed examination of whether it's premeditated, whether it was widespread, systematic".
"I'm not in a position to confirm this."
He stressed that for weeks he had "asked the Israeli authorities... to deploy a team, my team, to monitor, document, investigate the issues of the horrific attacks on Israelis".
"I've repeated this call and I hope it will be heard but so far, I haven't received a response."
Even if access is denied, Turk said that "we will find other ways and means to talk to whoever we need to talk to … Atrocious forms of sexual violence need to be thoroughly investigated, and we need to make sure that justice is served," he said.
"That's what we owe the victims."’
UN seeks Israel access for Hamas sexual violence investigation
The UN rights chief voiced deep concern on Wednesday over allegations of sexual violence by Hamas militants during their October 7 attack, calling on Israel to allow his team in to investigate.
Edit - A far left perspective
How the media lied about beheaded babies to ‘justify’ Israeli war crimes
Western journalists have done it before
And a Jewish independent non-profit on information gathering before the IDF subsequently claimed to have evidence of systematic rape
How Biden condemned Hamas for rape before the IDF officially confirmed it happened
The Israeli military said they have no evidence of rape claims shared by President Joe Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu.
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aolstudios
Well-known member
You're far from alone in this observation, @Tom Hark Preston Park
You mean he gives his opinion and provides sources to back it up?
Is that worse than the laughing emojis favoured by other posters?
To be honest, I prefer a post backed up by evidence to spurious claims based on nothing but bias, half-truth and hearsay.