Could you provide a source / sources of this evidence please?
Got something to say or just want fewer pesky ads? Join us... 😊
[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel
- Thread starter Greenbag50
- Start date
armchairclubber
Well-known member
For my own understanding of this conflict, I take this article into account.
www.timesofisrael.com
"For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad"
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces - The Times of Israel
The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from
www.timesofisrael.com
"For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad"
Last edited:
& there it is. Trope number two.
The imagined massive Jewish influence.
You're collecting the set
I must admit when I read that post and the following ones I did think it was straying towards the Jews Run the World conspiracy. However, it's worth exploring why these tropes exist.
Firstly, Jews do indeed hold some prominent positions, their people having been economically successful for over a thousand years. You wouldn't deny that, would you? It should be a point of pride and there are interesting historico-cultural reasons why it is the case.
Secondly, particularly in the US, Jewish groups do hold some sway, from Truman's relationship with Jacobson to AIPAC today. That's not to say they dictate policy but they certainly have the ear of those in high places.
All that being said, there are good moral as well as practical reasons why western governments would support Israel. That support shouldn't be unconditional though.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,966
That is not what I am doing and you know it - I have provided information that is pertinent to the Israeli Government use of propaganda, the lack of impartiality of Israeli officials, the IDF and some of the witnesses that were relied on. I said make up your own mind on whether there are individual incidences of one or two rapes or the ‘evidence’ proves that Hamas conducted the widespread assault and rape of women as part of the other atrocities they committed. The New York Times reports a probable ‘pattern of abuse’ based on reports from Israeli officials, Zaka (the emergence response services) videos supplied by the Israeli military and interviews with Israeli hearsay ‘witnesses’ but acknowledge that there are no witness statements by any person claiming to have been assaulted themselves and there is a lack of forensic evidence or rape kits used - as such, these alleged war crimes will be hard to prove in the ICC as war crimes - and could take years.
The NYT states “The Israeli police have acknowledged that, during the shock and confusion of Oct. 7, the deadliest day in Israeli history, they were not focused on collecting semen samples from women’s bodies, requesting autopsies or closely examining crime scenes.”. and “Many volunteers working for ZAKA, the emergency response team, are religious Jews and operate under strict rules that command deep respect for the dead. “I did not take pictures because we are not allowed to take pictures,” said Yossi Landau, a ZAKA volunteer. “In retrospect, I regret it.”. There are at least three women and one man who were sexually assaulted and survived, according to Gil Horev, a spokesman for Israel’s Ministry of Welfare and Social Affairs. “None of them has been willing to come physically for treatment ..”
None of this (and more) debunks any of the claims IMO but it does make the claims problematic in a number of areas because much of it is hearsay and videos/photos of the scenes by people with a hatred of Palestinians and Hamas that were not forensically analysed and reports/videos supplied by the IDF/Israeli security forces. I think it is very likely that some Hamas militants did commit sexual assault whilst carrying out the October 7 but whether it was limited to half a dozen cases out of hundreds and hundreds of female victims or was a widespread and systematic tool of terror as is being claimed, remains questionable on evidentiary grounds - I think it is important to understand the ‘evidence’ gathering process by MSM, the sources used and the likely impartiality of the witnesses relied on, including those who have posted video content onto social media and recognise that reporters‘ access to Israeli witnesses in Israel and the content of their testimony is tightly controlled by the Israeli military/security forces.
Sage advice.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,966
of what?
Billy the Fish
Technocrat
Hamas planned sexual violence as weapon of war - Israeli campaigner
An Israeli campaigner says militants planned acts of sexual violence committed in October's attack.
www.bbc.co.uk
Google it, there's 100s.
aolstudios
Well-known member
aolstudios
Well-known member
aolstudios
Well-known member
Only if people genuinely want to look.
Hamas planned sexual violence as weapon of war - Israeli campaigner
An Israeli campaigner says militants planned acts of sexual violence committed in October's attack.www.bbc.co.uk
Google it, there's 100s.
Some on here don't.
& won't
WIDESPREAD RAPE committed by HAMAS ON OCTOBER 7 - propaganda, hearsay or true?
Further to the link, I posted above, I am absolutely not saying these claims are untrue (and if they are true then that’s horrific) just that the bodies found were not examined for forensic evidence of assault before they were burned or buried, nor interviews done with any survivors of the alleged rape (despite all the claims of testimony after testimony) - in fact no survivors of rape have been produced according to EI The one witness on Israel’s video to the Western media claiming to have seen a woman being gang raped with her own eyes also says in the next breath, “ Hamas soldiers were celebrating with decapitated Israeli heads on sticks” - no first hand proof or evidence for that has been found.
Therefore, before taking what you read in the media as being the absolute truth about these allegations of systematic rape and assault by Hamas on 7 October, and before accusing anyone that questions them to be on the side of Hamas allow yourselves the benefit of at least considering an alternative explanation, then decide what you want to believe …but you won’t find it on X or unadulterated form of it in the Western media - the real truth might be somewhere in between.
Please - Just watch the video by Electronic Intifada - it’s basically saying what I have been trying to say above…and what the report says that I linked to …and while I don’t go as far as debunking the mass rape claim myself, I at least take it on board as a possibility that the claims of systematic rape by Hamas on October 7 are emanating out of a very sophisticated propaganda exercise:
This is also food for thought - Are the English translations of Arabic videos depicting Hamas being posted on Social media accurate?
EI are an independent group covering the Israeli Palestinian conflict
The Electronic Intifada - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
As far as I know Hamas haven't denied the accusations made by Israel or do you know otherwise ?
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,966
Good question (not that that is an endorsement by me of anything Hamas has to say btw!)
“NPR cannot independently verify allegations of sexual violence. Hamas denies that its fighters committed sexual assault and rape...Asked about the allegations at a press conference Wednesday, U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Volker Türk said he supported an investigation..."Atrocious forms of sexual violence need to be thoroughly investigated. We need to make sure that justice is served because that's what we owe the victims," Türk said.”
(“National Public Radio (NPR, stylized as npr) is an American non-profit media organization headquartered in Washington, D.C., with its NPR West headquarters in Culver City, California.[2] It serves as a national syndicator to a network of over 1,000 public radio stations in the United States.[3] It differs from other non-profit membership media organizations, such as the Associated Press, in that it was established by an act of Congress.[4]”)
From Reuters News Agency:
“Reuters reviewed images matching some of the descriptions or attesting to other possible atrocities. However, it could not independently verify all the accounts... Taher- al-Nono, the media adviser to the head of political bureau of Hamas, denied Hamas fighters were responsible for any sexual assaults in the attack and called for "a serious and impartial international investigation into the matter…A U.N. commission of inquiry investigating war crimes on both sides of the Israel-Hamas conflict will probe the allegations of sexual violence by Hamas, amid Israeli criticism the U.N. had remained silent. Israel accuses the commission of bias and has said it will not cooperate with the investigation.”
Last edited:
I was about to ban at least one person from this thread, but I'll issue a final warning. There won't be any more. Next time people will be banned, permanently, from this thread.
I don't care what "side" you are on, please debate the subject. If you attack other posters directly then you will be removed from this thread and, potentially, the site completely.
No subsequent apologies/appeals/grovels/"What about..."s will be listened to.
I don't care what "side" you are on, please debate the subject. If you attack other posters directly then you will be removed from this thread and, potentially, the site completely.
No subsequent apologies/appeals/grovels/"What about..."s will be listened to.
I found that post/video really informative and provided another perspective on that topic.
Please continue what you are doing. I know you have received abuse and false accusations but you can always ignore those users or take time off this thread. You have been a valuable part of this thread/discussion and I have learned a lot about this conflict from you - and other NSCers here.
BadFish
Huge Member
- Oct 19, 2003
- 17,184
Yes, asking for validation of sources and trying to find proof to substantiate claims is being factual and balanced, of course it is.
Accepting without question unsubstantiated 'claims' is buying into propaganda. While accusing others looking for proper evidence of ,downplaying' or 'denying' is the absolute opposite of being factual and balanced and evidence of bias and a clouded viewpoint.
Hence.my post.
Last edited:
I agree.I am not sure that condemnation Top Trumps is terribly helpful, frankly.
I condemn Bibi.
I condemn Hamas.
With that I am comfortable that I have done all I can do, nothing more to see, and I can get on with my life. The argument is settled.
Once I realised that both sides are as bad as each other I disengaged with this conflict with just a fool's hope remaining that they all one day see sense.
armchairclubber
Well-known member
Javeaseagull
Well-known member
- Feb 22, 2014
- 2,520
I wonder if this will make the mainstream media. I am not holding my breath.
aolstudios
Well-known member
They filmed, shared them & boasted they'd repeat them.
No one could *honestly* doubt they happened. But some on here are.
Repeatedly
Sorry, are you saying they filmed, shared and boasted about repeating the alleged sexual assaults? I don't think they did.