[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[carlzeiss]

Is it because Jordan already hosts the 2nd highest proportion of refugees in the world? (Lebanon no.1)

Jordan is home to an estimated 2 million Palestinians. Anyone know why they ended up there?

https://carnegieendowment.org/2023/11/21/jordan-s-redline-on-admitting-palestinians-is-unlikely-to-change-pub-91077

Former prime minister Ariel Sharon, among other Israeli politicians, has raised the idea multiple times, claiming that Jordan can serve as an alternative home since many Jordanians are of Palestinian origin. When Jordan and Israel signed a peace treaty in 1994, Jordan insisted on including a clause to guard against the possibility of mass transfer. Article 2.6 of the treaty states that “within their control, involuntary movements of persons in such a way as to adversely prejudice the security of either Party should not be permitted.”

Jordan’s fear had been building even before the October 7 Hamas attack, thanks to another major yet often overlooked factor: demography. The number of Palestinians in areas under Israel’s control has now exceeded the number of Israeli Jews: 7.4 million Palestinians, some of them Israeli citizens, to 7.2 million Israelis. On average, every Palestinian woman has a birth rate of 4.1 children to 3 for every Israeli woman. The trend is clear: the Palestinian majority is only going to increase with time.

 

[Bakero]

https://carnegieendowment.org/2023/11/21/jordan-s-redline-on-admitting-palestinians-is-unlikely-to-change-pub-91077

Former prime minister Ariel Sharon, among other Israeli politicians, has raised the idea multiple times, claiming that Jordan can serve as an alternative home since many Jordanians are of Palestinian origin. When Jordan and Israel signed a peace treaty in 1994, Jordan insisted on including a clause to guard against the possibility of mass transfer. Article 2.6 of the treaty states that “within their control, involuntary movements of persons in such a way as to adversely prejudice the security of either Party should not be permitted.”

Jordan’s fear had been building even before the October 7 Hamas attack, thanks to another major yet often overlooked factor: demography. The number of Palestinians in areas under Israel’s control has now exceeded the number of Israeli Jews: 7.4 million Palestinians, some of them Israeli citizens, to 7.2 million Israelis. On average, every Palestinian woman has a birth rate of 4.1 children to 3 for every Israeli woman. The trend is clear: the Palestinian majority is only going to increase with time.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at.

Jordan is understandably reluctant to take in more refugees seeing as they know the right to return is far from guaranteed. They're still hosting those driven out of Israel in the previous 70 years.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Reckon the end game for Israel is to displace the inhabitants of Gaza ever southwards into the relatively unpopulated Sinai Peninsula. Let them set up a Palestinian state there, maybe even help them build it. Would clearly require Egypt and US signing up to the deal, but hard to see a better deal for all parties

 

[Zeberdi]

It was very much a rhetorical question.

I thought so - but some people genuinely might not have known the answer so answered anyway

 

[Greenbag50]

Not to mention the 2 million driven from their homes and 8000 dead children.

Why don’t other Muslim countries accept them as refugees?

 

[Greenbag50]

This is a fairly sickening euphemism when amongst the IDF actions have included bombing hospitals, sniping civilians seeking refuge in a church and even killing unarmed escaped Israeli hostages who were unclothed from the waist up and waving white flags!

Like I said, there is always civilian casualties, especially if those civilians are deliberately placed there as they know they will be collateral damage, due to Hamas hiding beneath and among them.
Any comment on my other points re Muslims killing other Muslims?
Didn’t think so

 

[pocketseagull]

Any comment on my other points re Muslims killing other Muslims?

I don't understand your point? We shouldn't comment on Israeli war crimes because Muslims are also killed by other Muslims in other countries? It doesn't make sense.

I think people are rightly outraged by what they're seeing because the response is wildly disproportionate and the mistreatment of Palestinians has been ongoing for decades.

 

[Greenbag50]

I don't understand your point? We shouldn't comment on Israeli war crimes because Muslims are also killed by other Muslims in other countries? It doesn't make sense.

I think people are rightly outraged by what they're seeing because the response is wildly disproportionate and the mistreatment of Palestinians has been ongoing for decades.

Of course we should comment (and are doing so) on what Israel is doing in Gaza. They are trying to get rid of a terrorist group who are trying to wipe them of the face of the earth.
Hamas are hiding under and in where civilians live, so to kill terrorists, there will be civilian casualties. Hamas knows this and is executing its PR plan brilliantly.
You can also comment on the same level of atrocities ( worse in Syrias case where Assad used gas again his own people), happening in Syria and Sudan.
I don’t hear a thing about from UN, any main media outlets, mass street protests calling for the genocide in Khartoum to stop for 2 reasons;
1- No Jews are attacking Muslims, so no story
2- Muslims are attacking and killing fellow Muslims on a massive scale which is not news worthy and doesn’t involve Jews.

Can you not see the bias and one sided narrative which is pervasive? If you want to tell a story, you have to hear both sides, even if it doesn't fit your narrative to do so.

Sudan: New Mass Ethnic Killings, Pillage in Darfur

The Rapid Support Forces (RSF) and their allied militias, killed hundreds of civilians in West Darfur in early November 2023.

www.hrw.org

 

[aolstudios]

I don't understand your point? We shouldn't comment on Israeli war crimes because Muslims are also killed by other Muslims in other countries? It doesn't make sense.

I think people are rightly outraged by what they're seeing because the response is wildly disproportionate and the mistreatment of Palestinians has been ongoing for decades.

His point is, there's worse going on constantly in other countries.
But no Jews, no news

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

His point is, there's worse going on constantly in other countries.
But no Jews, no news

Always held to far higher standards than any other nation. It's like they're just supposed to suck up the events of 7th October

 

[Zeberdi]

Why don’t other Muslim countries accept them as refugees?

They have done but already there are sizeable populations of Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon - also in Iraq and Europe.

However, in the context of this war, as @Bakero said, unless the Right to Return is guaranteed, any push for a large scale acceptance of more refugees will be seen (and is already by Muslim states) as the ethnic cleansing of Palestines from the historic land of Palestine and de facto denial of any future for an independent Palestinian State (which Netanyahu openly admits to). It is tantamount to genocide to forcibly remove a nation of people from their homeland, mass slaughtering of innocent members of the population and making the land inhabitable. Refugee camps where people live in abject conditions as a result of violent conflict for obvious reasons can also be a petri dish for radicalism which no one wants the headache to deal with.

Why Egypt and other Arab countries are unwilling to take in Palestinian refugees from Gaza

As desperate Palestinians in sealed-off Gaza try to find refuge under Israel’s relentless bombardment in retaliation for Hamas’ brutal Oct. 7 attack, many ask why neighboring Egypt or other Arab countries don’t take them in.

apnews.com

 

[pocketseagull]

Israel prides itself as a beacon of democracy so why shouldn't it be held to a high standard? Although tbf Tom Hark you were seemingly advocating for ethnic cleansing as an end game so unsure if you believe that Israel is actually ever held to account.

 

[Zeberdi]

Of course we should comment (and are doing so) on what Israel is doing in Gaza. They are trying to get rid of a terrorist group who are trying to wipe them of the face of the earth.
Hamas are hiding under and in where civilians live, so to kill terrorists, there will be civilian casualties. Hamas knows this and is executing its PR plan brilliantly.
You can also comment on the same level of atrocities ( worse in Syrias case where Assad used gas again his own people), happening in Syria and Sudan.
I don’t hear a thing about from UN, any main media outlets, mass street protests calling for the genocide in Khartoum to stop for 2 reasons;
1- No Jews are attacking Muslims, so no story
2- Muslims are attacking and killing fellow Muslims on a massive scale which is not news worthy and doesn’t involve Jews.

Can you not see the bias and one sided narrative which is pervasive? If you want to tell a story, you have to hear both sides, even if it doesn't fit your narrative to do so.

Sudan: New Mass Ethnic Killings, Pillage in Darfur

The Rapid Support Forces (RSF) and their allied militias, killed hundreds of civilians in West Darfur in early November 2023.

www.hrw.org

What has Sudan or Khatoum got to do with a thread about Israel/Gaza/Hamas? Your thread that presumably you started to discuss the Hamas atrocities. But how Israel has responded changed the narrative. Not by justifying Hamas’s attacks but in the horrific ‘punishment’ continuing to be perpetrated in response to them.

If there is a bias towards the POV on this thread that Israel‘s response to the Hamas attacks has gone too far, is disproportionate and exacting a massive humanitarian cost on innocent civilians then that is a bias shared by the majority of Countries worldwide and a POV that is not political but rooted in the reality of humanitarian crises.

We can go back to discussing how despicable Hamas‘s attack on Israel was, but there is no debate there - everyone absolutely agrees on that.

Everyone also agrees that Israel is under the grip of a right wing Government that wants the Palestinian people to live under permanent military occupation (or ideally to be ‘evacuated’ from Gaza) and have no State of their own.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Israel prides itself as a beacon of democracy so why shouldn't it be held to a high standard? Although tbf Tom Hark you were seemingly advocating for ethnic cleansing as an end game so unsure if you believe that Israel is actually ever held to account.

So what's an alternative end game? Palestinians stay in an Israel-administered ghetto forever?

 

[aolstudios]

Always held to far higher standards than any other nation. It's like they're just supposed to suck up the events of 7th October

Exactly

 

[Krafty]

His point is, there's worse going on constantly in other countries.
But no Jews, no news

20,000 people have died because of this conflict in 2023. I think there are very few countries who are in a worse situation currently compared to Israel and Palestine.

Even if there is significantly worse issues going on in other countries (which I doubt there is) then so what? Many people have been affected by this conflict, and many more are interested in understanding about it (including myself).

 

[pocketseagull]

So what's an alternative end game? Palestinians stay in an Israel-administered ghetto forever?

I don't know how the situation is resolved, I would hope with negotiation and compromise from all parties. Unfortunately I don't see that coming all the time that Israel is allowed to commit war crime with impunity. Apartheid or ethnic cleansing don't appear to be the options of a country being held to higher standards.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I don't know how the situation is resolved, I would hope with negotiation and compromise from all parties. Unfortunately I don't see that coming all the time that Israel is allowed to commit war crime with impunity.

Except they do nothing of the sort, unless your narrative tells you that they do

 

[Bakero]

Except they do nothing of the sort, unless your narrative tells you that they do

Nothing of the sort?

Depriving civilians of food and water is certainly a bit war crimey. Then there's the mass civilian casualties.

Whether war crimes have been committed is for a court to decide but in light of the past couple of months it can't be dismissed out of hand.

 

[Zeberdi]

Firstly, Ghazi Hamad is clearly a reprehensible individual. Clearly hold innocent Palestinians in as much contempt as his holds Israelis and happy to see children die as he pontificates from the safety of the UAE or elsewhere.

However, that interview where he calls for repeated attacks is nearly 2 months old. I'm not suggesting he's seen the light and is now advocating peaceful coexistence; but your earlier post was misleading.

Edit: link to story on the interview: https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas...oct-7-onslaught-many-times-to-destroy-israel/

He is reprehensible - and obviously will claim the attack on Israel is justifiable.

However in that interview he doesn’t not call for the “annihilation of Israel’ as misleadingly posted by Dr Eli but for the ‘facist government of Israel’ to be isolated.

Those complaining about ‘bias‘ in the links I posted fron the UN and Sky News a few days ago, should also be aware that Dr Eli is an Israeli propagandist conspiracy theorist who has excellent credentials in AI and dog whistles to Islamophobics - I’d be very suspect of anything that man posts on X frankly

Why Is Pro-Vax Aetna Paying Firm Founded by COVID Skeptic?

Dr Eli David is a COVID skeptic who regularly tweets criticism about the settled science. But he’s also the co-founder of a company contracted by the health insurance giant Aetna.

www.thedailybeast.com