[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Zeberdi]

If the people of Gaza are guilty of voting for Hamas, are the people of Israel guilty of voting for their present government?

No - the ‘people of Gaza’ are not ‘guilty of Voting for Hamas’ - it’s irrelevant- see my post above.

[News] - Hamas attacks Israel - 'We are at war'

Except Israel are the long term oppressors and Palestinians are the subjugated so not not really... They are as bad as each other. Evil acts by Hamas. Evil response from Israel. Enough is enough.

www.northstandchat.com

The last election in Israel was a year ago in November 2022 - so yes, if you want to assign ‘guilt’ then the people of Israel have had more power to vote out their extremist government than the only 50% of the population in Gaza that were able to vote 19 years ago.

But ‘guilt’ for voting isn’t really a helpful approach imo in either case..

 

[Hamilton]

No - the ‘people of Gaza’ are not ‘guilty of Voting for Hamas’ - it’s irrelevant- see my post above.

The last election in Israel was a year ago in November 2022 - so yes, if you want to assign ‘guilt’ then the people of Israel have had more power to vote out their extremist government than the only 50% of the population in Gaza that were able to vote 19 years ago.

But ‘guilt’ for voting isn’t really a helpful approach imo in either case..

You're dead right. The word guilt should not be tied to voting.

I'm sure that the people of Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, China, Russia, Syria etc etc would love to be guilty of participating in free and fair elections. But let's not conflate the debate on this thread.

 

[Zeberdi]

But that description is, by definition, erring towards a side. As the UN Sec Gen said, we can’t see this instant in a vacuum.

Not sure what you mean - I have repeatedly made the point that we can’t see the war as taking place within a vacuum but against a back drop of 70 plus years of conflict (and illegal occupation among other things by Israel) - how is that ‘erring’? It is a mistake not to see the Hamas attack as not occurring in a vacuum - you have been following this thread, at least much of it as you appear to have done, so it is disingenuous to suggest I would argue the opposite - even the post you responded to can’t possibly suggest a viewpoint that ignores the contextual realities.

Humanitarianism ( which is my viewpoint) has NO sides. Both Israelis citizens and Palestinian civilians should benefit from fundamental human rights and be protected at time of war. I am not arguing for the protection of Palestinian civilians in Gaza because they are Palestinian but because they are human.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

 

[Albion my Albion]

Any Labour member that doesnt back a Ceasefire has blood on their hands.

Absolutely disgusting that a supposed party of the left continues to support Israel unconditionally in the way it does.

If it had been Britain brutally attacked by an old enemy in a surprise event in which innocent Brits were killed & their children forced to watch their parents murdered I think many would feel only one thing and that was to eliminate the terrorists and make Britain safe again. I know it is the way many, many Americans would feel.

 

[Zeberdi]

If it had been Britain brutally attacked by an old enemy in a surprise event in which innocent Brits were killed & their children forced to watch their parents murdered I think many would feel only one thing and that was to eliminate the terrorists and make Britain safe again. I know it is the way many, many Americans would feel.

- ‘eliminating the terrorists’ is largely incontrovertible, it’s the mass killing of civilians that people have an issue with.

 

[borat]

If it had been Britain brutally attacked by an old enemy in a surprise event in which innocent Brits were killed & their children forced to watch their parents murdered I think many would feel only one thing and that was to eliminate the terrorists and make Britain safe again. I know it is the way many, many Americans would feel.

If it had been Britain that had been brutally occupied over decades in which innocent Brits were imprisoned, subjected to Apartheid and sporadically killed and wounded in their thousands for a period of decades, I think many would feel one thing..and that was to eliminate the occupying terrorists and make Britain safe again. I know it is the way many many sentient humans would feel.

 

[Hastings gull]

- ‘eliminating the terrorists’ is largely incontrovertible, it’s the mass killing of civilians that people have an issue with.

Yes, that is true, but sadly Hamas have played on this long enough, knowing that eventually Israel will be stopped due to international pressure, as they always have been when gaining military superiority, as in 1967 and 1973. Were the Israelis to stop now, I imagine it would leave Hamas largely intact (obviously hard to know exactly) and the people of Gaza enslaved again. As an aside, I wonder how the protestors demanding that Palestinians be free see the future. If Israel does ever relinquish its control over them, in whatever form, does anyone seriously think that the people will be free in a benign democracy? I suspect that the only difference might be that they inherit different dictators, this time their own kin.

 

[aolstudios]

If it had been Britain that had been brutally occupied over decades in which innocent Brits were imprisoned, subjected to Apartheid and sporadically killed and wounded in their thousands for a period of decades, I think many would feel one thing..and that was to eliminate the occupying terrorists and make Britain safe again. I know it is the way many many sentient humans would feel.

'Apartheid'
Give it up mate, you just hate Jews.
However slyly you try to put it that's all you do.
Not a single post made in good faith.
Not one.
Just an antisemitic Bushy

 

[borat]

'Apartheid'
Give it up mate, you just hate Jews.
However slyly you try to put it that's all you do.
Not a single post made in good faith.
Not one

You don't have to take my word about Apartheid take the word of

Amnesty International
Human Rights Watch
Btselem - Israeli Human Rights Group

Or take the former chief of Mossads word for it

Israel imposing apartheid on Palestinians, says former Mossad chief

Tamir Pardo comments, slammed by ruling Likud party, carry weight because of high regard for intelligence agency in Israel

www.theguardian.com

You can bury your head in the sand. That up to you.

It's sad that you weaponise the situation by saying I hate Jews. It shows you are losing the argument when you make shameful smears.

Your only significant contribution to these threads is laughing emojis. I hope you contribute more to those around you in real life. Somehow I doubt it.

 

[aolstudios]

You don't have to take my word about Apartheid take the word of

Amnesty International
Human Rights Watch
Btselem - Israeli Human Rights Group

Or take the former chief of Mossads word for it

Israel imposing apartheid on Palestinians, says former Mossad chief

Tamir Pardo comments, slammed by ruling Likud party, carry weight because of high regard for intelligence agency in Israel

www.theguardian.com

You can bury your head in the sand. That up to you.

It's sad that you weaponise the situation by saying I hate Jews. It shows you are losing the argument when you make shameful smears.

Your only significant contribution to these threads is laughing emojis. I hope you contribute more to those around you in real life. Somehow I doubt it.

Nah mate.
You just hate Jews.
We see you

 

[borat]

Nah mate.
You just hate Jews.
We see you

No answer to the Apartheid evidence then and instead just more smearing?

Weaponising anti-semitism to defend Apartheid is pretty shameful.

 

[Zeberdi]

Unbelievable- after weeks of telling a million civilians to evacuate to Southern Gaza, particularly the main town of Khan Younis - IDF telling them to evacuate parts of Southern Gaza now - where are they supposed to go this time that’s safe? The entire population of Gaza is either being killed or forced into refugee camps.

Israel orders evacuation in parts of southern Gaza amid fears of escalation

Residents in east Khan Younis receive leaflets telling them to flee as UN rights chief warns there are no safe places.

www.aljazeera.com

Israel drops leaflets warning people to flee southern Gaza towns

Flyer campaign raises fears war could spread to areas IDF previously said were safe

www.theguardian.com

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Have we still not stopped laughing at Corbyn?

Starmer flushed him down the political shitter without anyone on the gammon wing apparently even noticing.

That's what I call leadership (Starmer I mean).

 

[GT49er]

Have we still not stopped laughing at Corbyn?

Starmer flushed him down the political shitter without anyone on the gammon wing apparently even noticing.

That's what I call leadership (Starmer I mean).

Well, he (Corbyn that is) was going into full Michael Foot mode as a leader of the Labour Party heading for a catastrophic election defeat.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Unbelievable- after weeks of telling a million civilians to evacuate to Southern Gaza, particularly the main town of Khan Younis - IDF telling them to evacuate parts of Southern Gaza now - where are they supposed to go this time that’s safe? The entire population of Gaza is either being killed or forced into refugee camps.

Israel orders evacuation in parts of southern Gaza amid fears of escalation

Residents in east Khan Younis receive leaflets telling them to flee as UN rights chief warns there are no safe places.

www.aljazeera.com

Israel drops leaflets warning people to flee southern Gaza towns

Flyer campaign raises fears war could spread to areas IDF previously said were safe

www.theguardian.com

View attachment 169904

It is genocide. And there is nothing now to stop it. Since Hamas won't agree to a ceasefire, and America won't demand Israel stop, this will continue until Hamas surrender, or Gaza is bombed back into the stone age. My money is on the latter.

Should Israel show mercy? Even though the rockets will resume? Somehow I suspect it is too late for that now. That's what the bigger man would have done, but Bibi is not a big man, and his supporters are nut cases.

That's where we are.

Oh, hang on, the UK Liberals have demanded a ceasefire, and some sorts have resigned from labour in support! Nothing more to see here, now, then. Handshakes and lasting peace all round, in the morning.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Well, he (Corbyn that is) was going into full Michael Foot mode as a leader of the Labour Party heading for a catastrophic election defeat.

Luckily he's gone.

And whatabout Boris Johnson?

 

[wellquickwoody]

There is a question that has puzzled me for many, many years. Antisemitism (I know a word, an act, a mindset, certainly not a question). As many others have stated in this thread, the Jews have been the target of hatred, genocide, war crimes, prejudice etc etc, for many centuries across Europe, and before that in the Middle East.

Now for the question (not loaded in any way, I just do not know the answer), why have they been the target of the above over a very long period?

 

[Bakero]

There is a question that has puzzled me for many, many years. Antisemitism (I know a word, an act, a mindset, certainly not a question). As many others have stated in this thread, the Jews have been the target of hatred, genocide, war crimes, prejudice etc etc, for many centuries across Europe, and before that in the Middle East.

Now for the question (not loaded in any way, I just do not know the answer), why have they been the target of the above over a very long period?

Short answer:

In the Hellenic age, they were marked out as different by their rejection of the pagan gods. Things escalated with the advent of Christianity as they were depicted as the killers of the son of God, and so begun their exile: the wandering Jew was born. Religious difference soon became political and Jews were denied rights afforded to other citizens, forcing them to live on the margins of society. Church teachings ensured their outsider status. Ghettoes arose in the middle ages which persisted until modern times.

Despite this, the success of some Jews in commerce and banking led to heightened suspicion and ultimately their expulsion from various European countries.

Then came nationalism and pseudoscientific theories on race which labelled them as inferior. They became handy scapegoats for politicians.

The early 20th century saw the publication of the Elders of Zion, which gave rise to the conspiracy theories of the Jewish quest for world domination which persist today.

 

[Zeberdi]

There is a question that has puzzled me for many, many years. Antisemitism (I know a word, an act, a mindset, certainly not a question). As many others have stated in this thread, the Jews have been the target of hatred, genocide, war crimes, prejudice etc etc, for many centuries across Europe, and before that in the Middle East.

Now for the question (not loaded in any way, I just do not know the answer), why have they been the target of the above over a very long period?

As a Jewish person, I may be able to offer a slightly different perspective than you might find elsewhere in non-Jewish sources;

You may find this article below helpful background - as it provides an historical emphasis of anti-semitism that is often missed by non-Jewish people in the interpretation of the persecution narratives (ie those that emphasise religion, faith, power, wealth etc as explanations of anti-semitism - which in themselves are often used as anti-semitic tropes) - The article below might help to understand too why the concept of C19th Zionism and the drive for a Jewish State is so entrenched in persecution history and the significance that has for the Jewish identity: The Jewish people have a complicated history but the following are key factors in the persecution narrative:

• Anti-semitism is concerned more with exclusion politics and expedient scapegoating than it is with religion or wealth - Non-assimilation of ancient-Israelite Jews into cultures and countries of the first (Great) diaspora after the exile from Babylonia, left them always seen as the ‘other’ - a group with a strong sense of cultural identity, monotheism and dietary rules that set Jewish people apart from the pagan traditions that hitherto had prevailed in ancient Egypt and the Hellenic Empire.
• European anti-semitism which had it’s own specific characteristics and that lead to the Holocaust, was rooted in Nazi-racial theories that targeted all outsiders and those not of ‘Aryan descent’ who would ‘pollute racial purity’ - so Jews, Blacks, Gypsies, Gays, Slavs, any ethnic minority became grounds for discrimination - but the European anti-semitism did not happen in a political vacuum - Third Reich and extremist nationalist movement in Germany in the 1930’s grew directly out of the 1929 Great Depression and the economic collapse of the Weimar Republic - a group that is ’homeless’/‘stateless’ in any society has always been used as a rationale for discrimination and expulsion, especially when a leadership is weak or particularly when natural and social resources are low …
• Ironically, the very birth of the State of Israel gave rise to a whole new era of anti-Jewish feeling rooted in anti-colonialism and anti-occupation, or more accurately anti-Israel - modern anti-semitism in the Arab world is not against Jews but against the State of Israel.

In modern western culture there is a sort of reverse psychology taking place with regard to anti-semitism - increasingly ‘anti-semitism’ itself is being misappropriated for political expediency - the ‘other’, the ‘outsider’ has become Islam, far right ideologies now target Muslims in diaspora and both the State of Israel and Western anti-semitism are serving weak and far right leaders as a springboard to promote Islamophobia and Great Replacement Theory in the face of rising immigration and depleting public resources - this phenomenon not only diminishes and detracts from the very real and genuine anti-semitism that still exists within contemporary Western culture but those that misappropriate anti-semitism are themselves, it can be argued, being anti-semitic when doing so despite the rhetoric being portrayed as the opposite.

Who are Jews? An overview of Jewish history from ancient times on, and the origins of antisemitism - UW Stroum Center for Jewish Studies

Judaism, Jewish history, and anti-Jewish prejudice: An overview By Mika Ahuvia, Associate Professor of Jewish Studies & Comparative Religion Watch a video version of this […]

jewishstudies.washington.edu

“anti-Jewish attacks are generally not about Jews as people, or about their religious differences. Attacks on Jews are primarily about their fragile status in society, their position as “outsiders,” and about the useful role outsiders can play for political leaders and others as scapegoats during times of crisis.”