[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[The Fits]

@Zeberdi Thank you so much for your input on this thread. It's incredibly detailed and informative.

 

[sparkie]

Interesting and moving article from the BBC today - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079

So at a push, you could argue the IDF are not targeting civilians because they warn them and tell them to get out ( I don't agree with that opinion at all ) BUT it does show the IDF have no issue destroying civilian property and leaving them homeless and desperate. Once again, good way to breed the next generation of Hamas fighter/terrorist. How stupid are the IDF and Israeli government ? Look forward to a number of Israeli's being put on the arrest list for war crimes like Putin - silly me, the West supports these war crimes but not the ones carried out in Ukraine by Russia.

The Butcher of Moscow is on the arrest list solely for the forced deportation of children to Russia. None of his other war crimes have an arrest warrant sadly.

I suppose there is a parallel with the taking of child hostages by Hamas but inconsistently there is no arrest warrant for that yet. Maybe it is in the pipeline

 

[aolstudios]

Do you want to post a link to the maps you are looking at- because if it is the series of the 4 green chronological maps you are referring to, these are highly misleading and are basically propaganda maps - they have been dismissed as such by every independent authority..as discussed previously on this thread by a number of posters.

There’s no justification for terrorism.

Spot-on.
All of that ^

 

[Lever]

I know comparatively little about the history and politics of this war. but thanks to expert and brave journalism, along with some clear and helpful comments on this thread I am learning a lot. Thank you.

It seems our terminally mendacious government, along with other mischief makers, is determined to make this shocking conflict a simple dichotomy: you either support the Palestinians or Israelis; but it is perfectly possible to condemn vile Hamas attacks on innocents, illegal Israeli expansionism, and casual revenge murder of civilians in Gaza.

Braverman must be held to account for inciting civil violence.

 

[Zeberdi]

It seems our terminally mendacious government, along with other mischief makers, is determined to make this shocking conflict a simple dichotomy: you either support the Palestinians or Israelis; but it is perfectly possible to condemn vile Hamas attacks on innocents, illegal Israeli expansionism, and casual revenge murder of civilians in Gaza.

You are spot on - the government of course are fully aware of the non-binary nature of the issue - unfortunately until all us us become more au fait with the history and nuances of the Palestinian question, our ignorance will serve the interests of anyone wishing to disseminate biased or even extremist viewpoints of the facts.

I must say, despite it now waning a bit, the input on NSC and the level to which posters have made the effort to embrace the complexities and nuances has been impressive IMO - there’s been a far more informed and measured discussion here and one that is largely free of Islamophobic and anti-Semitic stereotyping than I’ve seen on some other forums and social media the past month or so - I think NSCers could be proud of that.

 

[Bakero]

You are spot on - the government of course are fully aware of the non-binary nature of the issue - unfortunately until all us us become more au fait with the history and nuances of the Palestinian question, our ignorance will serve the interests of anyone wishing to disseminate biased or even extremist viewpoints of the facts.

I must say, despite it now waning a bit, the input on NSC and the level to which posters have made the effort to embrace the complexities and nuances has been impressive IMO - there’s been a far more informed and measured discussion here and one that is largely free of Islamophobic and anti-Semitic stereotyping than I’ve seen on some other forums and social media the past month or so - I think NSCers could be proud of that.

The majority of NSCers are smarter than the average bear. You see that across all threads.

As for "our ignorance", I fully agree and have a theory that this is why media studies is so demonised. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think it should be a core component of secondary education. Especially in the era of social media and the fake news epidemic.

 

[Bakero]

Good to see Macron is now calling for a ceasefire. Also, quite shocking to see even the US are now politely suggesting Israel rein it on a bit. Blinken doing that really is a sign of how bad things have got.

 

[Lever]

The majority of NSCers are smarter than the average bear. You see that across all threads.

As for "our ignorance", I fully agree and have a theory that this is why media studies is so demonised. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think it should be a core component of secondary education. Especially in the era of social media and the fake news epidemic.

 

[Lever]

Thank you for that. After years of teaching English from Special Needs to undergraduate level, I chose to study and take up teaching Media Studies for a further fifteen years. I consider it an important and relevant subject but was derided for it, sometimes by colleagues who should have known better. The most unfunny comment was that my instructions to all learners should be; 'sit down, shut up, it's on....'

 

[borat]

Details for the London march today

National March For Palestine – Ceasefire Now!

National March For Palestine – Ceasefire Now! Saturday 11th November – Assemble: 12pm at Hyde Park...

www.stopwar.org.uk

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Thank you for that. After years of teaching English from Special Needs to undergraduate level, I chose to study and take up teaching Media Studies for a further fifteen years. I consider it an important and relevant subject but was derided for it, sometimes by colleagues who should have known better. The most unfunny comment was that my instructions to all learners should be; 'sit down, shut up, it's on....'

Media Studies = Same soft Uni option it ever was

 

[Seagull58]

 

[Zeberdi]

Two premature babies die, 37 under threat at Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital

Neonatal intensive care unit stops working at under-siege facility with power outages and no fuel.

www.aljazeera.com

Just heartbreaking - and how are medical staff to evacuate new born babies reliant on incubators - with hospitals running out of fuel and rockets being fired on ambulances?

 

[aolstudios]

Well, exactly

 

[Wardy's twin]

I think there is a lot of political naivety being shown, whether people like it or not this is just another version of the 'west v the rest' being played out by proxies at a number of levels so our government and opposition parties cannot really criticise one of their main allies in the area and in same way as they don't criticise Saudi Arabia.

In a binary world (yes that's a simplification but observation of where we are) they are on 'our side'. They do things we don't like but then turn your eyes on countries that are involved from the other side are they any better no and by a long waythey are worse IMO. Iran hangs people by dragging them up by a crane, god knows how many people were killed (and are still being killed) in Syria by their own government etc. Look what's happening in Saharan Africa where insurgents round up villagers and just destroy them because they are Christians. where are the marchers for them.

In a perfect world seen through the eyes of a comfortably wealthy, safe and stable country what is happening in Gaza is terrible (it is ) but what is happening is in clear response to a barbaric attack designed by HAMAS (Iran) to produce a massive response from Israel. They knew this would happen because they know the Israeli mind set (especially Netanyahu) would not let this pass without response and they never respond in half measures.

In a perfect world none of this happens we don't have a perfect world.

I don't believe Israel should have responded militarily, not because they weren't justified , but because this mess was predictable . The 1400 hundred dead and 250 hostages are now forgotten or ignored by a mass of people in the west whose apparent agenda is to get rid of Israel. That's what the chant means.

I saw one comment that Israel is not a democracy , depends on how you use the term but it is and stands out as a dimmed beacon of democracy in an area of autocrats and violence.

So call out that the bombing is wrong (military action is ) but make sure you call out Hamas for their part in provoking the attack and their part in putting arms supplies with civilian areas and also callout for a proper solution not the destruction of the Jewish state and the people therein.

 

[Wozza]

The 1400 hundred dead and 250 hostages are now forgotten or ignored by a mass of people in the west whose apparent agenda is to get rid of Israel. That's what the chant means.

Woah!

I think a lot of folk in the West would like to see a change of direction from the Israeli government. And some would like a two-state solution.

But I don't think a sizable mass of people in the West want to "get rid of Israel". That's quite a leap!

 

[aolstudios]

I think there is a lot of political naivety being shown, whether people like it or not this is just another version of the 'west v the rest' being played out by proxies at a number of levels so our government and opposition parties cannot really criticise one of their main allies in the area and in same way as they don't criticise Saudi Arabia.

In a binary world (yes that's a simplification but observation of where we are) they are on 'our side'. They do things we don't like but then turn your eyes on countries that are involved from the other side are they any better no and by a long waythey are worse IMO. Iran hangs people by dragging them up by a crane, god knows how many people were killed (and are still being killed) in Syria by their own government etc. Look what's happening in Saharan Africa where insurgents round up villagers and just destroy them because they are Christians. where are the marchers for them.

In a perfect world seen through the eyes of a comfortably wealthy, safe and stable country what is happening in Gaza is terrible (it is ) but what is happening is in clear response to a barbaric attack designed by HAMAS (Iran) to produce a massive response from Israel. They knew this would happen because they know the Israeli mind set (especially Netanyahu) would not let this pass without response and they never respond in half measures.

In a perfect world none of this happens we don't have a perfect world.

I don't believe Israel should have responded militarily, not because they weren't justified , but because this mess was predictable . The 1400 hundred dead and 250 hostages are now forgotten or ignored by a mass of people in the west whose apparent agenda is to get rid of Israel. That's what the chant means.

I saw one comment that Israel is not a democracy , depends on how you use the term but it is and stands out as a dimmed beacon of democracy in an area of autocrats and violence.

So call out that the bombing is wrong (military action is ) but make sure you call out Hamas for their part in provoking the attack and their part in putting arms supplies with civilian areas and also callout for a proper solution not the destruction of the Jewish state and the people therein.

Excellent summary. I don't agree with every word but it's refreshing to see a thoughtful response

 

[aolstudios]

Woah!

I think a lot of folk in the West would like to see a change of direction from the Israeli government. And some would like a two-state solution.

But I don't think a sizable mass of people in the West want to "get rid of Israel". That's quite a leap!

A leap that a chilling amount of people are taking. Right now

 

[Wozza]

A leap that a chilling amount of people are taking. Right now

Source?

 

[Wardy's twin]

Woah!

I think a lot of folk in the West would like to see a change of direction from the Israeli government. And some would like a two-state solution.

But I don't think a sizable mass of people in the West want to "get rid of Israel". That's quite a leap!

I use the word 'mass' not sizeable and I am wrong for not quantifying better but I can't . But what I am seeing is a movement by more and more people who really aren't considering the bigger picture but are fixated by the bombing and by freeing Palestine in a way which can only mean the destruction of Israel. I am also commenting on the fact that you don't see same level of support for people being killed in many other places.