[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Hastings gull]

Interesting that your analogy ascribes the Palestinians as the Germans and the Israelis as the Allies.

The Israelis who are carrying out the occupation Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing are a much better fit with the Germans. It's quite some twist of logic to spin it the other way.

No I did not do this: had you properly read the posts, you might have realised that I was replying to the suggestion that wars can never solve anything, and whilst that might largely be true, in the case of the campaign against Hitler, it really did create a much better and freer Germany as well as free many peoples in Europe.

 

[Wardy's twin]

But that’s what I have been saying along and raised most of the same points early in the thread as have others - in fact I have given detailed analysis of exactly these issues.

The only issue I had with what your were saying repeatedly is that Israel should not have carried out any military response but unilaterally laid down her arms in response to an incursion of paramilitary terrorists. To me this is both irrational and idealistic and a little offensive tbh …the call to non-violence must be imposed on all sides to any conflict.

So on that point we differ.

But on everything else we agree

The only issue I had with what your were saying repeatedly is that Israel should not have carried out any military response but unilaterally laid down her arms in response to an incursion of paramilitary terrorists. To me this is both irrational and idealistic and a little offensive tbh …the call to non-violence must be imposed on all sides to any conflict.

Don't think I ever said that. I said they need to look at all the options and the bigger picture and clearly said they should retain the right to strike at any time. No laying down arms but certainly not bombing the crap out of areas which will contain civilians. In some previous events Israel has collated information about those who carried out attacks and then later took action.

 

[Zeberdi]

Sometime in that period the provisional IRA had surpassed 1500 murders, so enough to justify the mass killing of civilians in the eyes of most Western democratic nations. Kill several thousand and you're bound to score some terrorists and their families, including a few babies. Maybe it wouldn't have worked that well because West Belfast isn't a gigantic open prison from which there is no escape. So what do you think?

I think your irony will go over the heads of a few people here - suffice to say we didn’t bomb the fcuk out of the Irish civilian population in response to IRA terror attacks that’s for sure - and yes, maybe that’s the thinking of Netanyahu but it will be ineffective as a long term strategy and is a war crime on so many different levels.

I found out recently this was the hunting technique of falcons that while using something akin to proportional navigation in missile technology in single targets, when faced with a large prey flock, it’s dive right in to a dense flock and grab whatever your talons bump into.

 

[Bakero]

No I did not do this: had you properly read the posts, you might have realised that I was replying to the suggestion that wars can never solve anything, and whilst that might largely be true, in the case of the campaign against Hitler, it really did create a much better and freer Germany as well as free many peoples in Europe.

The analogy was pretty clear.

 

[POSKETT AT THE VALLEY]

Hey, but what do I know?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Hey, but what do I know?

You don't appear to know about the existing thread

 

[Nottseagull]

Surely you could have posted this on the relevant thread associated with the point you’re making or are you looking for a few claps and slaps?

I did do; it was posted under a thread entitled "Should the RAF have bombed West Belfast in the early 1990s"
No mention was made in it of the Palestine-Israel conflict but a mod appears to view the two scenarios as comparable. I can't say I disagree with him!

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

This was always nailed on “Benjamin Netanyahu says Israel will have “overall security responsibility” for Gaza once the fighting ends”

basically occupation, before you know it bulldozers will be sweeping away the rubble and dead children and building new homes for Israeli settlers.

 

[borat]

Powerful short speech by Israeli author and journalist Gideon Levy

 

[Zeberdi]

This was always nailed on “Benjamin Netanyahu says Israel will have “overall security responsibility” for Gaza once the fighting ends”

basically occupation, before you know it bulldozers will be sweeping away the rubble and dead children and building new homes for Israeli settlers.

Interesting and, yes, I thought it was pretty obvious that they would try this from day 1 - genocide followed by de facto annexation by military Occupation - and it fits with what I have been saying for days about the Netanyahu’s far-right government and their agenda to a Greater Israel. The antithesis of Ariel Sharon’s approach in 2005 when he ended military occupation to improve security …

This is the first time they’ve mentioned post-war Gaza though - more pertinently, there is an implicit admission (or blatant contradiction) in his statement of his own mission failure - that after 11,000 + deaths from their bombardment of Gaza, they will still need to ‘control Gaza’ to prevent an large scale eruption of Hamas terror - they have also given themselves an off-ramp - and exit strategy - there will be no ‘exit’ at all and the ‘off-ramp’ will be when they claim to have ‘security control’

“I think Israel for an indefinite period will have the overall security responsibility because we’ve seen what happens when we don’t have it. When we don’t have that security responsibility, what we have is the eruption of Hamas terror on a scale that we couldn’t imagine” …

Netanyahu: Israel will have ‘overall security responsibility’ in Gaza for ‘indefinite period’ after war

* * *

www.timesofisrael.com

This statement from him will cause a massive backlash from the Arab world - he will have to pull his troops out and at least install Abbas/Palestinian Authority in the foreseeable future with a multi-national Arab input or this conflict will continue to escalate….

Interestingly, he’s hyping up the global axis of terror argument - in a speech to foreign ambassadors on 6 November using exactly Zelenkyy’s arguments and exact words the Ukrainian President used when he was riling up global support for Ukraine - saying ‘Europe will be next’ - ‘This is a global battle’

“What we see is a broader battle between civilization and barbarism. The barbarism is led by an axis of terror. The axis of terror is led by Iran. It includes Hezbollah, Hamas, Houthis and their other minions. They seek to bring the Middle East and the world back to a dark age. They seek to torpedo, to derail any progress towards peace and the progress and the promise that we had in our budding peace treaties with our Arab neighbors. If they go strong, if they're not defeated, they will derail this process, they will imperil the entire Middle East. If the Middle East falls to the axis of terror, Europe will be next and no one will be safe. This is not a local battle. This is a global battle. The paramount need is to defeat this axis.”

IMO - I think we are looking at the beginning of ‘what is known in the trade’ as attempted ’mission creep’ which I touched on earlier in the thread - in the face of a rapidly losing PR battle on their bombardment of Gaza, the narrative is widening into one that would, according to Netanyahu, justify a regional conflict and the subtext is to get American support for bombing Iran. Netanyahu has now pulled the rug out from under all attempts to get Israel to agree to a ceasefire and landed Blinken right in the thick of it while doing so - for how can the American SoS argue against the justification of a global war on terror when it is the Americans that have lead the world by the scruff of the neck into years of war in the ME on the basis of that very rationale?

 

[Zeberdi]

Powerful short speech by Israeli author and journalist Gideon Levy

This is just one opinion and purely my own - powerful, yes, and I agree mostly with what he says, as I always have, especially with regard to the dehumanising of Palestinians- I have always had a great amount of respect for Gideon Levy both as a journalist and orator and his reporting from the OPT for the past 30 years, at risk to his personal safety from rightwing Israelis, has been nothing short of heroic but on this occasion a/ he doesn’t speak about all Jews in his critique which doesn't come across - there is a lot of sweeping generalisation for the sake of ‘punch’ and his audience is very targeted b/ in his condemnation of the ‘chosen people’ belief - it is only far-right wing Ultra-Orthodox thinking that translates this into to policy (I posted a few days ago that the majority of Jews in Israel are in fact secular or ‘lukewarm’ to any kind of Judaistic belief) and since the far-right parties won so many seats in the November 2022 election, there has been a steadily growing Left Wing backlash against Netanyahu’s Religious Zionist policies amongst the secular population - So, as much as I agree with him otherwise, it does not go far enough to embrace the diversity of the current political ideology among Jews in Israel and potentially hands an enormous amount of fodder to anti-semitics who will use this speech to justify hatred towards the Jews and Israel sadly.

 

[sydney]

Sorry but you misunderstood me - Please read back on some of my posts - not once have I said a limited military response/proportionate one would be effective in destroying Hamas - it would have to be utterly disproportionate and even then, I have serious doubts it would be effective. I have said repeatedly that even if Israel did bomb Gaza back into the stone age, and kill every citizen left in Gaza, Hamas will survive - maybe not the foot soldiers/paramilitaries but certainly the ideology - and the leadership in Qatar and Turkey. there are some 7 million Palestinians in refugee camps throughout the ME that will be vulnerable to fresh radicalisation in response to this war after watching the deaths of their family, friends and brethren systematically slaughtered under the ‘Occupier’s bombs’. There is no argument from me that what Israel is doing is not only illegal but risks leading this conflict into the Abyss and dragging the whole of the ME with it.

yes ......but luckily we've had the RWC the day night wc in india and VAR to keep the CLODDS occupied and there is no sarcasm there , the world at this particular point in time is on very thin ice but as long as we have stella , guiness and VAR to keep the morons occupied the ice is getting thiner and thiner.

 

[sydney]

Powerful short speech by Israeli author and journalist Gideon Levy

im sure that was an extremely emotional speech for him to make ....fair play to him , what he is saying is 100% correct , especially regarding Netanyahu who is an absolute political whore.

 

[rippleman]

It's all ok. Israel has said that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

Israeli official insists there's no humanitarian crisis in Gaza​

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67339462

Phew! That's ok then. All those UN and other humanitarian agencies clearly don't know what they are talking about.

 

[sydney]

It's all ok. Israel has said that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

Israeli official insists there's no humanitarian crisis in Gaza​

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67339462

Phew! That's ok then. All those UN and other humanitarian agencies clearly don't know what they are talking about.

ahhh the BBC ....prrfft , nice of them to publish that eh...?? i think the world can now see what the Israeli govt. are all about and Hamas leaders will sit thousands of miles away while the dollars pour in ........sickening

 

[hans kraay fan club]

It's all ok. Israel has said that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

Israeli official insists there's no humanitarian crisis in Gaza​

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67339462

Phew! That's ok then. All those UN and other humanitarian agencies clearly don't know what they are talking about.

Once they've managed to kill, or drive out, all of the humans in Gaza, then their statement will be technically correct.

 

[Guinness Boy]

No I did not do this: had you properly read the posts, you might have realised that I was replying to the suggestion that wars can never solve anything, and whilst that might largely be true, in the case of the campaign against Hitler, it really did create a much better and freer Germany as well as free many peoples in Europe.

I'm not sure those in the East who went from Hitler to the Stasi would necessarily agree.

To draw a parallel, you may eventually create a "better" Israel but what do you do with the displaced Palestinians who survive?

 

[sydney]

I'm not sure those in the East who went from Hitler to the Stasi would necessarily agree.

To draw a parallel, you may eventually create a "better" Israel but what do you do with the displaced Palestinians who survive?

will there ever be a better Israel given what they did to achieve it...i don't think so.

 

[Zeberdi]

Once they've managed to kill, or drive out, all of the humans in Gaza, then their statement will be technically correct.

Their statement has always been correct as far as they are concerned - there’s no humanitarian crises in Gaza - you need to recognise Gazans as ‘humans’ in the first place to merit there being a humanitarian crisis:

Entire population of Gaza becoming ‘dehumanised’ says UN commissioner | Israel-Hamas war | The Guardian

Philippe Lazzarini, who leads main UN agency in Palestine, says lives of millions depend on ceasefire

amp.theguardian.com

 

[Zeberdi]

will there ever be a better Israel given what they did to achieve it...i don't think so.

Which is why for me the 2 state solution is not only increasingly unlikely out of the remaining lands of Palestine, post 1967 because of settlement expansion but because Israel’s security nightmares will never be resolved in the region even with an independent Palestinian State - wherever that ends up.

A ‘better’ Israel for me would be something along the lines of a newly formed ’State of Palestine & Israel’ that fully integrates the Palestinian People, giving them all everywhere a right to return, full Israeli citizenship, full civil and human rights and social and economic opportunity afforded to Jews - both by way of reparation and of reconciliation of the past.

The world and Israel need to recognise there is no longer any room
in our modern world for an Israel that subscribes to an extremist Religious Zionism and a Theocracy that alienates over 65% of its population any more than radical Islamic fundamentalism is welcome in Palestine - Israel must give a proper home to a homeless people as she herself was once homeless.

No one on this thread has spoken about it but it is already de facto what we have and would be a solution I would totally support - Everyone is stuck on a two state solution because they have read about it here or heard it on the MSM but a one state solution is they way forward in any new peace process imo - Yeah, it will might never happen but would be ‘better’ and worth a go - and might be the only chance of lasting peace.