[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Wardy's twin]

So, as you have amply demonstrated here, you have little to no knowledge of the most basic facts, history or reasons behind the current conflict (despite this very thread being a rich source), and believe that what you 'feel' is sufficient justification for the murder of thousands and thousands innocent children, women and men.

I am not sure where we go from here if you refuse to acknowledge simple history and facts and won't consider anything outside of your visceral feelings

The history just does a lot to obscur the current reality. HAMAS wants to destroy Israel, Israel doesn't want to be destroyed. If Hamas and more importantly Iran changed its stance then some sort of progress could be made. Don't get me wrong the current Israeli government has many faults but it's moved to right over the years as the threat from extremists have continued. Israel is something resembling a democracy NONE of the surrounding states are.

 

[WATFORD zero]

The history just does a lot to obscur the current reality. HAMAS wants to destroy Israel, Israel doesn't want to be destroyed. If Hamas and more importantly Iran changed its stance then some sort of progress could be made. Don't get me wrong the current Israeli government has many faults but it's moved to right over the years as the threat from extremists have continued. Israel is something resembling a democracy NONE of the surrounding states are.

I would suggest that History absolutely defines the current reality.

If you don't understand the history, how could you possibly have even the simplest understanding of the current situation or possible solutions

 

[Bakero]

Don't get me wrong the current Israeli government has many faults but it's moved to right over the years as the threat from extremists have continued. Israel is something resembling a democracy NONE of the surrounding states are.

After the Oslo Accords it was rightwing Israelis protesting in the street. One of them was so aggrieved at the step forward in the peace process that he murdered the PM. Next election, the Israeli public voted Likud back into power.

 

[Zeberdi]

I don't know as much abut this as you do, so this is a genuine question. I am sure that I looked at Wikipedia and saw that hamas gained 44% of the vote in 2006 -the last election held in Gaza, as they have strangled all opposition since.

An important question - Hamas has a history of being both a political wing and a military wing - a distinction that for some observers is irrelevant given the history of violence and the rejection of the political role Hamas had on the PA - but for others, it’s a light of opportunity in that Hamas’s political wing is rather like Sinn Fein - seen as the political wing of the IRA or Yasir Arafat‘s political leadership of the PLO or Neslon Mandela in South Africa etc - places that have all become more stable regions because of a willingness to grant political status to former terrorists.

Hamas started suicide bombing in resistance to the ongoing talks between Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin months before the Olso peace talks in 1992 - which aimed to set up the PA with an elected presidency and parliament.

In 2006, Hamas won a controlling proportion of seats in the legislature created by the Oslo Accords, an international effort to resolve the conflict. Hamas took internal control of the Gaza Strip the following year by ousting Fatah party rivals in a short civil war. No further elections have been held since so one can not say that that the People of Palestine have given Hamas a mandate to destroy Israel - especially in light of my earlier comments re. how they suppress opposition but also, as has been pointed out by myself and others previously - about half of Gazans are under 18 so were only just born (or not) when Hamas took over the Gazan Strip

.

Was Hamas a nice cuddly organisation then or did it campaign on a ticket of destroy Israel, in which case the people of Gaza are not quite as innocent as commentators here like to make out.

Never ‘cuddly’, no - Hamas was established in the West Bank and Gaza by a muslim cleric as the political arm of the Muslim Brotherhood in the first intifada in 1987 as competition against another ‘terrorist’ organisation, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) which is still active in the OPT today. 1988 - Hamas published its charter which called for the destruction of Israel, and creation of a Muslim State (a one state solution) but subsequently toned it down in 2017.

It makes for very interesting reading and might help explain why it’s ideology has support amongst Palestinian civilians (although not necessarily the violent means by which it tries to achieve it)

HAMAS CHARTER MAY 2017

https://palwatch.org/storage/documents/hamas%20new%20policy%20document%20010517.pdf

Note - it states that the jihad (struggle) is against the ‘Zionist racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist project’ not against the Jews because they are Jewish‘ (which is another reason why comparisons with the Holocaust is unhelpful) and Hamas are indeed correct that the Religious Zionist extremists do ’constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project …’

From the outset, while the PLO recognised Israel as does Abbas of the PA in the West Bank, Hamas has always refused to. Incidentally Fatah, who work glove in hand with the IDF on security issues, also has a military wing , Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (AAMB) formed in late 2000 during the second intifada as a militant wing of the West Bank's Fatah political faction. The group seeks to drive Israeli military forces and settlers from Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip and establish a Palestinian state.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Because Israel is a nation state and not a terror organisation. The UK did not bomb the shit out of Dublin when we were attacked by the IRA. Thousands of innocent civilians did not die at the hands of the British Army during the 'troubles' although there were some casualties. In 30 years I think the estimates are less than 200 innocent civilians, which isn't great but is no where near the scale of what Israel are doing.

It remains a nation state because it is prepared to fight for it also I will re-iterate its a nation state not recognised by most of its enemies.

Your analogy to Ireland really doesn't stand up. At no point did the IRA state its objectives were do destroy Britain , wipe out the British people. At no point did it want to wipe out the ulster protestants though it wanted the 6 counties to be reunited with the rest. Regards Dublin and Eire , a lot of the south of Ireland did not want those from the north joining (catholics & protestants) who they saw would destabilise the country. It also ignores the point that a lot of the wealth and power in Dublin is with non-catholics.

The solution came in Northern Ireland (following a series of tit for tat obnoxious sectarian killings) because the leaders of the IRA and the various Protestant groups realised they were going nowhere with the violence. HAMAS leaders have constantly stated that Israel needs to be destroyed and the attacks on 7th are just a small taste of what is to come.

Personally I think Israel has taken the wrong choice , they needed to win the political war and not a military one (many Israelis will say different). IMO they needed to show the world what HAMAS did and that has been lost by the media focussing on the bombing. They then needed to concentrate on getting back all of the hostages and then start identifying those who took part and put them up as war criminals. The potential for military action could have been kept as an option .

 

[Wardy's twin]

After the Oslo Accords it was rightwing Israelis protesting in the street. One of them was so aggrieved at the step forward in the peace process that he murdered the PM. Next election, the Israeli public voted Likud back into power.

Indeed there is no room for extremist views.

Long term the settlers need to be reined in and land given back in the West bank and the whole issue of rights need to be discussed but that doesn't address the elephant in the room that IRAN/HAMAS want Israel and the Israelis destroyed.

I deliberately used Israeli rather than Jew because there are Arabs (muslim& christian) who form part of the state and indeed Arab soldiers defended one of the Kibbutz that was attacked.

 

[A1X]

You really believe that when the war opposition doesn't hold to international law that you are supposed to anyway. Tell that to the Israeli mothers' whose babies were set on fire.

Yes, that’s how the law works. In the same way that if someone steals my car I’m not allowed to murder them, their family and everyone living on their street.

 

[Krafty]

So the certain Germans after WWII shouldn't have been executed just because they ran concentration camps which Hamas the Palestinians have declared lies and propaganda.

I have changed your comment because that is incorrect. See source, published in 2000, below...

Palestinian Holocaust Denial

Hamas (the Islami

www.washingtoninstitute.org

"Hamas (the Islamic Resistance Movement has recently published a denial of the Jewish Holocaust on its official website."

The Palestinians and Hamas are not the same, this has been said several times on here and is one of the most important facts you need to know before debating about this conflict - you have to research first.

 

[tedebear]

The Palestinians and Hamas are not the same, this has been said several times on here and is one of the most important facts you need to know before debating about this conflict - you have to research first.

Whilst that is very much true, it is hard to differentiate when many Palestinians and the Palestinian flags were out on the streets cheering and showing support for Hamas and their intial incursion... Just as there are Palestinians who do not suport Hamas, there are Palestinians who do...You can understand Palestinians demonstrating against the land grabbing but to do it the day after Hamas blew up a whole heap of innocents made it hard for the uneducated to separate the two.

 

[Wardy's twin]

I would suggest that History absolutely defines the current reality.

If you don't understand the history, how could you possibly have even the simplest understanding of the current situation or possible solutions

Where does the history start -the Jews were in control of Judea 2000 years ago so does that justify a nation state or do you go back to who was there 3000 years ago or 5000 years.

Without doubt events in history has created the current reality but it does little to help to solve the current problems

a) we have a state called Israel with 10 million people of who roughly 7.5 million identify with the jewish faith and we have a number of countries and political units who want to destroy the state of Israel and the kill the Jewish (at least) population

b) we have 5 million Palestinians in Gaza and Westbank (plus others in surrounding countries) who want self rule and some form of equal rights. It is unclear to me what actual proportion of these support destruction of Israel or just want to better themselves BUT at least 2 million on Gaza are closely associated with the actions of HAMAS

To me part of the solution lies with sorting out equal rights , probably as a two state solution but that will never satiate the extremists on either side but it is the 'fair' solution for the ordinary people who want just to live and to achieve this Israel has to rein in the Zionists. Difficult because as the terrorist threat has increased Israel has moved further to the right and the Zionist/Settlers have profited from this as they form the balance of power . This is potentially achievable IF America pushes for it.

But that leaves the question will extremists on the side of Palestine (and that includes Iran & Syria) accept a 2 state solution and if not what will you do about them. So far there is absolutely zero indication they will change their mindset.

 

[Wardy's twin]

I have changed your comment because that is incorrect. See source, published in 2000, below...

Palestinian Holocaust Denial

Hamas (the Islami

www.washingtoninstitute.org

"Hamas (the Islamic Resistance Movement has recently published a denial of the Jewish Holocaust on its official website."

The Palestinians and Hamas are not the same, this has been said several times on here and is one of the most important facts you need to know before debating about this conflict - you have to research first.

Clearly they are different , one is a political organisation (with military elements) the other is a loose definition for a group of people but the question remains is how do you identify who is who in a conflict and no amount of research (reading) will tell you who is going to shoot at you and who won't.

 

[Zeberdi]

Whilst that is very much true, it is hard to differentiate when many Palestinians and the Palestinian flags were out on the streets cheering and showing support for Hamas and their intial incursion... Just as there are Palestinians who do not suport Hamas, there are Palestinians who do...You can understand Palestinians demonstrating against the land grabbing but to do it the day after Hamas blew up a whole heap of innocents made it hard for the uneducated to separate the two.

Yes, there has been some blurring of boundaries and I was guilty of that myself right at the beginning of this thread on the day of the attacks -I absolutely agree there are definitely issues around the sensitivity of bringing up context so soon after the attack on Israel (especially for Jews still dealing with a national trauma) but it was important for the world to see that 10/7 didn’t happen in a vacuum -

Perhaps in retrospect, yes, I think you have a good point, it may have been better to wait a week or so but part of that rapid response was down to the ’rhetoric of Netanyahu himself within hours of the attack declaring all out war on Hamas in such a belligerent way (to compensate for his massive security failure) as to make one feel this was a situation escalating from 0-60 in a few seconds so to speak - in the face of a perceived threat of this very quickly spilling over into a regional war in the ME (which reverberated around the world ) yes, there were many people, trying rather clumsily admittedly, to be the voice of restraint and reason - placing the attack in historical context was always going to be the basis of any kind of rational discourse. It was not helpful that rather than embracing the complexity, most people saw that rational call for restraint and reasoning as an attempt to excuse or justify terrorism- it wasn’t,

It was also a shame that voice of reason, in the early days, was drowned out by the MSM focused as it was on getting as higher an emotional response to news stories as possible with the focus on a small minority of extremist behaviour in Pro-Palestinian demonstrations, stories of headless babies circulating for days etc - all drowning out the moderate voices of the many - and that has typified the War and most of the social media discourse around it.

 

[Bakero]

Where does the history start -the Jews were in control of Judea 2000 years ago so does that justify a nation state or do you go back to who was there 3000 years ago or 5000 years.

Without doubt events in history has created the current reality but it does little to help to solve the current problems

a) we have a state called Israel with 10 million people of who roughly 7.5 million identify with the jewish faith and we have a number of countries and political units who want to destroy the state of Israel and the kill the Jewish (at least) population

b) we have 5 million Palestinians in Gaza and Westbank (plus others in surrounding countries) who want self rule and some form of equal rights. It is unclear to me what actual proportion of these support destruction of Israel or just want to better themselves BUT at least 2 million on Gaza are closely associated with the actions of HAMAS

About half of those 2 millions Gazans are kids. How are they closely associated with Hamas?

 

[Zeberdi]

About half of those 2 millions Gazans are kids. How are they closely associated with Hamas?

I think this is going round in circles! Some people for some reason can not get beyond stereotyping and I’m wondering how much this has to do with Gaza and how much it has to do with a general world view

 

[Bakero]

I think this is going round in circles! Some people for some reason can not get beyond stereotyping and I’m wondering how much this has to do with Gaza and how much it has to do with a general world view

It certainly is. Seemingly, some are totally committed to the idea that one side commit random acts of terrorism and the other defend themselves. If only it were that simple.

 

[Zeberdi]

a) we have a state called Israel with 10 million people of who roughly 7.5 million identify with the jewish faith and we have a number of countries and political units who want to destroy the state of Israel and the kill the Jewish (at least) population

This too is factually incorrect information you are posting …

Firstly just on a point of clarity - being ‘Jewish’ doesn't conflate with being Judaistic ie not all Jews identify with the Jewish faith, in fact the majority don’t

Out of the 7.5 million Jewish people residing in Israel, in a 2023 poll of the over 20s;

• 44 % of Jews self-identify as secular ie don’t hold any Judaistic belief,
• 22% are what you might call ‘lukewarm’ observers of Judaism,
• 12% observe cultural and traditional practices,
• 12% describe themselves as religious Jews and finally
• only 11% hold the ultra-orthodoxy of Netanyahu and his Government

According to a poll by the NGO Hiddush published in September 2019, 58% of Jewish citizens do not affiliate with any religious stream, 18% are “Zionist Orthodox,” 12% are “ultra-Orthodox” (including 2% “Zionist ultra-Orthodox”), 7% “Reform,” and 6% “Conservative.”

It is important to establish this since it helps to avoid stereotyping what Jewish citizens in Israel or indeed in the rest of the world might believe or think in relation to this war - assumptions about people of other cultures and ethnicity ought to be avoided when discussing this conflict please.

edit: source https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/latest-population-statistics-for-israel

 

[Wardy's twin]

This too is factually incorrect information you are posting …

Firstly just on a point of clarity - being ‘Jewish’ doesn't conflate with being Judaistic ie not all Jews identify with the Jewish faith, in fact the majority don’t

Out of the 7.5 million Jewish people residing in Israel, in a 2023 poll of the over 20s;

• 44 % of Jews self-identify as secular ie don’t hold any Judaistic belief,
• 22% are what you might call ‘lukewarm’ observers of Judaism,
• 12% observe cultural and traditional practices,
• 12% describe themselves as religious Jews and finally
• only 11% hold the ultra-orthodoxy of Netanyahu and his Government

According to a poll by the NGO Hiddush published in September 2019, 58% of Jewish citizens do not affiliate with any religious stream, 18% are “Zionist Orthodox,” 12% are “ultra-Orthodox” (including 2% “Zionist ultra-Orthodox”), 7% “Reform,” and 6% “Conservative.”

It is important to establish this since it helps to avoid stereotyping what Jewish citizens in Israel or indeed in the rest of the world might believe or think in relation to this war - assumptions about people of other cultures and ethnicity ought to be avoided when discussing this conflict please.

edit: source https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/latest-population-statistics-for-israel

Thanks for the correction and clarification some bad wording on my part as I was trying to say that 7.5 million were ethnic Jews as opposed to the 2.5 million from other ethnic groups and persuasions (religious and secular).

The point still stands though that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran , Syria (others) will happily see these 7.5 million people dead and the state of Israel destroyed. They have no compromise on that.

Agree with your last point about stereotyping because the state of Israel contain 2.5 million non jews , many of whom prosper in the state of Israel and on 7th October Israeli Arab soldiers defended one of the Kibbutz's.

 

[Wardy's twin]

About half of those 2 millions Gazans are kids. How are they closely associated with Hamas?

Define child ..... under 18 ? there were 'kids' spitting on the dead bodies of Israelis who were taken into Gaza. Lots of rejoicing about the numbers killed across all age groups and sexes.

There will certainly be whole families who support HAMAS as their fathers, brothers, sons are fighting.

Everyone is condemning Israel but I see no solutions being put forward.

I will restate, HAMAS continues to say they will repeat the attacks yet no one is saying that is wrong. If there is a ceasefire what happens next?

I have said I think the Israeli's were wrong to do military action because of a number of reasons but now they have started how do you identify the sex or age suicide bomber or someone throwing a grenade as opposed to an innocent bystander , especially when previous tactics have shown that age and sex are no barriers.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Tbh - ‘long term’ it is not as case of land being ‘given back’ - Isreal withdraw completely from Gaza in 2005 - military withdrawal and dismantling and removing all Jewish settlements after they occupied it illegally in 1967 - the OPT has been under self-rule ever since - but remains under overall control of Israeli, blockaded in with exits tightly controlled as well as control over airspace and maritime waters and over the passage of goods, services and people . Obviously the settlement expansion in the West Bank restarted under Netanyahu and needs to stop not just be reigned in.
- I think it needs more than a discussion - it needs another serious effort peace process put in place and an immediate moratorium on settlement expansion.



Sorry but this is imo also a misrepresentation of what the Palestinian people want ( and deserve) and that is a fully independent state and not just ‘some form of rights’ but full civil and democratic freedoms with the right to self-determination- a bit more than you seem to imply I think.

Gaza is still considered 'occupied' because of the constraints & controls you mention. The land 'given back' should be the west bank land taken by the settlers in recent (last 20? years) so that the West bank can become a tenable state. I honestly don't know about Gaza's future.

Do the Palestinian people want a fully independent state as part of a two state solution or do they want to wipe Israel (and the Jews) off the map as part of a one state solution? HAMAS and HEZBOLLAH want to destroy Israel and the cry from ' from the river to the sea' espouses that so whilst you say a fully independent state is a clear objective that in itself needs clarification.

 

[Bakero]

Define child ..... under 18 ? there were 'kids' spitting on the dead bodies of Israelis who were taken into Gaza. Lots of rejoicing about the numbers killed across all age groups and sexes.

There will certainly be whole families who support HAMAS as their fathers, brothers, sons are fighting.

Everyone is condemning Israel but I see no solutions being put forward.

I will restate, HAMAS continues to say they will repeat the attacks yet no one is saying that is wrong. If there is a ceasefire what happens next?

I have said I think the Israeli's were wrong to do military action because of a number of reasons but now they have started how do you identify the sex or age suicide bomber or someone throwing a grenade as opposed to an innocent bystander , especially when previous tactics have shown that age and sex are no barriers.

A child is a generally defined as a human that hasn't reached adulthood. So yeah, under 18 would be a fairly standard rule. About 40% of Gazans are under 14 which I guess you'd agree is too young to a fervent Hamas supporter.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say nobody says a continuation of Hamas attacks would be wrong. Has anybody defended them?

As for identifying who is a "suicide bomber", I don't know where to start. Is it now 9000 Palestinian dead this month? They weren't killed as they were suspected terrorists but merely "collateral damage".