[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Zeberdi]

That may be the case Harry but let's take the moral high ground. I am hating the current position this government (total government as all main parties) are supporting Israel in everything they do... Too many are frightened of the anti-Semitic card but f***ing hell we can't sit by and allow slaughter.

I would suggest that the lack of support for the Palestinians arises not out of a fear of contradicting Israel but of Islamophobic attitudes towards Muslim/Palestinians, that to me is becoming increasingly clear in recent days with attitudes towards the protestors and the rhetoric from our political leaders - the ‘fear of being accused of being anti-semitic’ is largely a cover for a deeper antipathy towards islam imo and an excuse not to speak out in defence of Palestinians (including the many thousands of British citizens being demonised for marching for peace) . But that’s arguable and only one view based on personal subjective experience and it does not detract from the reality that people who do criticise Israel have been accused of anti-semitism by some people - I say just look below the surface of who is doing the accusing and ask what their agenda is towards Islam.

As far as British support for Israel, while it may not be entirely unequivocal, it is a hard tradition to break - Britain historically has backed the State ideology of Zionism from its conception and sees Israel as a political and strategic ally in the Middle East - Israel has support from the UK because that is our policy and it always has been. Britain has a history too of using Israel to do its dirty work, notably in recent history, attacking Egypt over its nationalisation of the main Suez Canal international shipping company, in 1956. Since that fiasco, we have become a US junior partner, following the US in our foreign policy decisions - the US’s reliance on Middle Eastern oil has made that even more problematic,

We helped arm Israel to the teeth in the 60s which propped up Israel in the 1967 6 Day War (followed by the Occupation of Gaza and the West Bank/Golan Heights) - The illegal Occupation by Israel of the Palestinian territories was made possible because of our supply of tanks. Like the US, the survival of Israel is fundamental to our policy in the Middle East. That relationship of unequivocal support became complicated and more circumspect when we and the US sought normalisation relationships with Arab States over oil interests - it is those relationships with the Arab world that are at threat now while our UK government stands on the sidelines, implicitly supporting what is in my mind, no doubt, genocide of the Palestinian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territories with a view to further annexation and one state solution.

The only hope of the Palestinian people is our reliance on the Middle East for oil - we already have an embargo on oil/gas imports from Russia - a war in the ME could have devastating effects on the global oil trade and send fuel prices rocketing - there will come a point where antagonism of the Arab world by this genocidal war will force the US/UK in voting for a ceasefire to protect our oil interests.

To see how history is repeating itself, in Gaza as it was in Occupied Lebanon in 1982, this makes for essential reading:

Sabra and Shatila massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thatcher, denounced Israel’s acquiescence to the attack on Lebanese Palestinian refugee camps by Christian Phalangist militiamen in the Sabra and Shatila massacre, as barbaric - An attack Ariel Sharon the Defence Minister (later Prime Minister) claimed was justified to out PLO members.

“Once Palestinian and Lebanese civilians were sealed inside the camp, over the course of three days, 16 - 18 September 1982, thousands of Palestinian refugees and Lebanese civilians were violently raped, mutilated and tortured. Up to 3,500 were savagely slaughtered under the oversight of the Israeli occupation forces. “

Israel’s war in Gaza revives Sabra and Shatila massacre memories in Lebanon

Survivors of the 1982 massacre by an Israel-backed militia in Lebanon say what Gaza is going through is even worse.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Zeberdi]

Yeah your probably right, considering we don’t know which one to blame, that and non of them exist anyway.

You do seem to have a particular personal antipathy to religion, that comes across in many of your posts tbh (and perhaps justifiably so - and maybe based too on personal negative experiences (which I could certainly relate to!) - but I think as Karl Marx did that ‘religion‘ is the ‘opium’ by which the ‘masses’ are convinced their lives are better than they are and blinds them to their oppressive status - it also can make them vulnerable to those who would manipulate their religious belief to serve a more machiavellian purpose - state sponsored ‘religion’ is frequently used to convince the peoples to follow political ideologies that have nothing more than territorial power, political dominance and selective racial assertiveness as in their core objectives. That does not mean to say all religious experience is invalid or inauthentic or that there is no room for genuine spirituality in our world - I think there is.

Religion isn’t the cause of conflict imo, on the contrary, most religions advocate peace and love but it is certainly been used as a dog whistle and casus belli for wars, since time immemorial …

 

[Horses Arse]

Spot on from someone at the UN.

“The current wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian people, rooted in an ethno-nationalist colonial settler ideology, in continuation of decades of their systematic persecution and purging, based entirely upon their status as Arabs … leaves no room for doubt.”

Mokhiber added: “This is text book case of genocide” and said the US, UK and much of Europe were not only “refusing to meet their treaty obligations” under the Geneva Conventions but were also arming Israel’s assault and providing political and diplomatic cover for it.

 

[borat]

Clearly doesn't matter to the Israeli's how many children or women they kill just as long as they can justify the strike for taking out a SINGLE Hamas member. Nothing but terrorists which our government are supporting.

And that assumes we believe Israel that a Hamas member was at the camp rather than the explanation being a post war crime justification.

Israel can somehow locate a single Hamas member in a refugee camp, yet were unable to detect the preparation and implementation of a wider attack involving many Hamas members.

 

[Bakero]

Spot on from someone at the UN.

“The current wholesale slaughter of the Palestinian people, rooted in an ethno-nationalist colonial settler ideology, in continuation of decades of their systematic persecution and purging, based entirely upon their status as Arabs … leaves no room for doubt.”

Mokhiber added: “This is text book case of genocide” and said the US, UK and much of Europe were not only “refusing to meet their treaty obligations” under the Geneva Conventions but were also arming Israel’s assault and providing political and diplomatic cover for it.

Just to add, he was able to speak so candidly as this was his final communication before stepping down, having reached retirement age.
Predictably, his words have had a mixed reception: praise in some quarters, accusations of anti-Semitism from others. It seems those in the latter group have taken umbrage at his advocacy of a one-state solution.

 

[Horses Arse]

Just to add, he was able to speak so candidly as this was his final communication before stepping down, having reached retirement age.
Predictably, his words have had a mixed reception: praise in some quarters, accusations of anti-Semitism from others. It seems those in the latter group have taken umbrage at his advocacy of a one-state solution.

Yes, early retirement I believe. Such a shame that political pressure to support Israel despite everything that happens prevents such thoughts being expressed.

 

[Bakero]

Yes, early retirement I believe. Such a shame that political pressure to support Israel despite everything that happens prevents such thoughts being expressed.

Working for the UN must be frustrating at times as the veto system reduces them to a debating society.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I wouldn't be too surprised by our Government's support really. Nothing much changes.

UK apology sought for British war crimes in Palestine

A 300-page dossier details atrocities by British soldiers against Palestinians during UK rule.

www.bbc.com

And if anyone wants to just dismiss that as all in the past. Then you can read this from today as well.

King Charles expresses "deepest regret" for Kenya colonial wrongdoings

King Charles said on Tuesday he felt the "greatest sorrow and deepest regret" for atrocities suffered by Kenyans during their struggle for independence from British colonial rule.

www.reuters.com

I am not sure what apologizing for our colonialism has to do with demanding a ceasefire in someone else's war.

 

[borat]

I am not sure what apologizing for our colonialism has to do with demanding a ceasefire in someone else's war.

It's not strictly speaking someone else's war though is it and we have contributed to the current state of affairs.

The Balfour declaration helped facilitate the Nakba and death and displacement of Palestinians.

We sell arms (almost half a billions worth in last 8 years) and also give significant political support to Israel. Both main UK parties give unflinching support to Israel regardless of what they do.

We help facilitate and maintain the Israeli occupation and Apartheid so cant glibly call it "someone else's war"

 

[nicko31]

It's not strictly speaking someone else's war though is it and we have contributed to the current state of affairs.

The Balfour declaration helped facilitate the Nakba and death and displacement of Palestinians.

We sell arms (almost half a billions worth in last 8 years) and also give significant political support to Israel. Both main UK parties give unflinching support to Israel regardless of what they do.

We help facilitate and maintain the Israeli occupation and Apartheid so cant glibly call it "someone else's war"

Hard to disagree we're far from a neutral player, International law and convention applies when it suits us.

 

[Zeberdi]

I am not sure what apologizing for our colonialism has to do with demanding a ceasefire in someone else's war.

I agree - Absolutely nothing in terms of getting us out of the current situation and Britain has not been directly responsible for daily horrors that have characterised life in the OPT for innocent Palestinians or innocent Israeli’s that have died - however, I think @borat is right to remind us though (yet again on this thread!) , that (setting aside ‘colonial’, ‘post-war‘ Europe), Britain’s relationship with Israel has been inextricably linked in the past 70+ plus years of the conflict - both politically and militarily as I and other have pointed out above - in particular as I said earlier by arming her with tanks during the 1967 6 Day war that enabled the illegal Occupation of non-Israel Palestine .

We can not, as some poster was suggesting on another thread, treat this war as something a/ we have had no part in creating the conditions for b/ something we should not care about because it’s happening thousands of miles away ‘to Jews and Arabs’

It effects us both from a geo-political pov and also directly effects citizens in the UK - especially Jewish and our very significant Muslim communities.

It’s not helpful imo to start raking over the ills of the British empire or western colonialism prior to 1947 -where would you start to untangle our historical influence on the world from contemporary conditions - look at the map - !? it moves the dialogue too far away from current atrocities being committed by Israel now and by Hamas by getting stuck too much on this - but it is pertinent, I think, to have a basic contextual understanding of the modern geo-political relationship that the UK (and the US have with Israel, if only to appreciate the complexity

(Btw, Israel was selling arms to Argentina while Thatcher was dealing with the Falklands war and Israel was occupying Beirut and overseeing massacres of Palestinians in Lebanese refugee camps.)

British Empire | History, Countries, Map, Size, & Facts

British Empire, a worldwide system of dependencies—colonies, protectorates, and other territories—that over a span of some three centuries was brought under the sovereignty of the crown of Great Britain and the administration of the British government. Learn more about the British Empire in this...

www.britannica.com

I dont know why the image map above was removed from my post - it is clearly an educational resource, open access material, available to share and print without permission! No copyright infringement afaiwa and filed under commons.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I do not support the current carnage and indiscriminate maiming and killing of children. It is sickening.

But I'm not standing along side people shouting 'death to Israel' and 'Jihad'. I'm not on the 'side' of Hamas either.

I'm not sure what I can do as an individual other than emote.

And I've not spoken to one of my brothers, who blames Israel for all of this, and logically 'understands why' Hamas launched the recent attack, for what it is worth (nothing).

It is all so tragic. I am not at a loss to see how this will end any way other than badly. Horribly. It is very hard to be unable to do anything that would make a meaningful difference.

 

[AK74]

...where would you start to untangle our historical influence on the world from contemporary conditions...

As there are only 22 countries [out of 195] which Britain hasn't invaded or fought conflicts in, it's small wonder that other nations aren't exactly thrilled when we show up offering to show them the errors of their ways in the modern era.

 

[Simster]

Working for the UN must be frustrating at times as the veto system reduces them to a debating society.

I noticed that Turkey approached Russia only yesterday about setting up a UN alternative for precisely this reason.

I'm not sure why they went to Russia with it - the Russians are one of the nations with a veto! You'd think anyone outside those 5 nations would be a bit more sympathetic.

 

[sparkie]

Is thinking 'both sides are as bad as each other' both anti-semitic and islamophobic at the same time ?

Because that's where my thoughts are heading.

Enough.

 

[Zeberdi]

Is thinking 'both sides are as bad as each other' both anti-semitic and islamophobic at the same time ?

Because that's where my thoughts are heading.

Enough.

No - those terms would be misplaced in this context - if you are referring specifically to the bombardment of innocent civilians by Israeli government or the atrocities carried out by Hamas - criticism of either side is just being humane.

 

[Albion my Albion]

And that assumes we believe Israel that a Hamas member was at the camp rather than the explanation being a post war crime justification.

Israel can somehow locate a single Hamas member in a refugee camp, yet were unable to detect the preparation and implementation of a wider attack involving many Hamas members

Hamas attacked Israel without any regard at all for civilian casualties. They are terrorists that purposefully took hostages. The Israelis are fighting a war. Whether they were prepared for the attack by Hamas has nothing to do with the need to take out the Hamas leaders. Don't cleanse the Hamas leaders of their sins because they are hiding among their civilians! Those Hamas leaders are the true cowards of the situation. They want to fight a war with only one side playing by the rules of war.

 

[borat]

Hamas attacked Israel without any regard at all for civilian casualties. They are terrorists that purposefully took hostages. The Israelis are fighting a war. Whether they were prepared for the attack by Hamas has nothing to do with the need to take out the Hamas leaders. Don't cleanse the Hamas leaders of their sins because they are hiding among their civilians!

You missed the point of my post. Please reread.

 

[rippleman]

How anyone living in the free country we do, or even those elsewhere who post on here, can look at tonight's pictures on the news of Gaza and say it is deserved are deluded. Lives of innocent people are being exterminated by evil.

To be fair, I think it's only really the government and Sir Starmer who are of the mind that it is deserved.

No right-thinking person with a jot of empathy and compassion would take the view that the brutal, vicious assault on innocent Palestinians, particularly children, by the State of Israel is deserved.

 

[carlzeiss]

Not sure exactly how this helps the Palestinians

Now a THIRD McDonald's is hit by pro-Palestine mice attack

A masked gang of pro-Palestine activists hurled rodents at a third McDonald's restaurant in Birmingham while chanting and flag-waving in protest at the fast food chain's alleged support of Israel.

www.dailymail.co.uk