[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[nicko31]

Given the asymmetric death toll in the last three weeks (8000+ Palestinians dead, ~1300 Israelis), are you hopeful that showing civilians videos of Hamas's crimes would help.

Bear in mind their homes, schools, hospitals and businesses have been destroyed too.

Added to that, they have the collective memory of decades of violence, oppression and destruction. I think you'll have a hard time convincing them that they are the baddies.

View attachment 168949

This is what oppression looks like on the ground. Palestinians driven off their land by daily harassment and intimidation from illegal Jewish settlers in the West Bank.

The Israeli government turns a blind eye. People keep mentioning International law with regard to Israel, they have ignored it for decades.

 

[Rogero]

This horrendous Hamas attack has certainly highlighted to me how badly the Palestinians are being treated . They are being pushed out of their homes by illegal Jewish settlers and the Israeli government is looking the other way . I am on no one’s side and just want this religious war to stop .

 

[Zeberdi]

People keep mentioning International law with regard to Israel, they have ignored it for decades…

I’ve mentioned that a lot too in relation to the historical events that led up the current conflict - in fact I posted this link below on my very first post to the thread on the day Hamas attacked Israel (and was accused in subsequent posts many times of justifying terrorism, for being anti-semitic for criticising Israel, not Jewish enough and playing down the attacks on Israel when pursuing that line of thought thereafter - that is until the mainstream media started having the same dialogue about Israel’s human rights abuses and those critics dialled it back.)

Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory - Global Centre for the Responsibility to Protect

Since 7 October 2023 Israeli forces have perpetrated likely war crimes and crimes against humanity in Gaza and the Occupied West Bank. Palestinians face mounting risks of ethnic cleansing and genocide. Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have also perpetrated likely atrocity crimes.

www.globalr2p.org

There’s been a culture of silence for years in mainstream media because Israel very strictly controls access both to Israel and the OPT and information coming out of there and the Western media has an inherent pro-Israel bias.

And there still is ….
Posted this yesterday but it probably went unnoticed

Palestinians expelled from W.Bank village as Gaza war rages

Within an hour, the Bedouin village of Wadi al-Seeq in the occupied West Bank had been completely emptied, its 200 residents fleeing on foot with their sheep and goats.

www.france24.com

 

[wellquickwoody]

The quick to turn to response to criticism of Israel and/or its leaders has just been thrown st me on X. In response to Netanyahu’s talk of ‘time for war‘ I typed that he should be charged as a war criminal due his acceptance of civilian casualties numbering many thousands. Within minutes I was being accused of being an anti-Semite, how bloody predictable.

 

[nicko31]

This horrendous Hamas attack has certainly highlighted to me how badly the Palestinians are being treated . They are being pushed out of their homes by illegal Jewish settlers and the Israeli government is looking the other way . I am on no one’s side and just want this religious war to stop .

The fog of war in Gaza is being exploited and used as an excuse to marginalise the Palestinians further, the Israeli government will do nothing and Western governments are silent.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Yes - As we have said many times in this thread - What Israel is doing is ‘collective punishment’ - this was outlawed under the 4th protocol of the Geneva Convention under Article 33

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-33#:~:text=Collective%20penalties%20and%20likewise%20all,and%20their%20property%20are%20prohibited.

and they are non-reciprocal (ie doent matter what the other side has done to ‘deserve it’)

Israel is also likely in violation of a number of International Humanitarian Laws which covers both hostilities and Occupation (control over territory for which there is no consent) - the Occupier must provide for basic needs of the population.

Fundamentally, Israel is under legal obligation to take all ‘feasible’ precautions to protect Palestinian civilians both in the current outbreak of war and at all times during the Occupation - you don’t need to look very far the see numerous examples of those laws being violated - you could start by reading back a little bit on the thread

“If an attack fails to discriminate between combatants and civilians or would be expected to cause disproportionate harm to the civilian population compared to the military gain, it is also prohibited”

How Does International Humanitarian Law Apply in Israel and Gaza?

In the aftermath of Hamas’s attack on Israel, and Israel’s ensuing bombardment campaign of the Gaza Strip, there is much discussion, by both experts and non-experts, about international humanitarian law (IHL), the law governing armed conflict and military occupation, and its application in the...

www.hrw.org

Probably best to leave God out of it - charged with enough religiosity as it is with people claiming to know what God wants …

The laws on provision for the basic needs of the population can't apply yet, because Israel isn't in control of Gaza. If and when Hamas surrenders, then Israel will be in control and will have the chance to look after the population if they want to. They can't do it now.

It needs to be considered that there is a certain difficulty in discriminating between Hamas soldiers and civilians is difficult because the soldiers don't wear uniform. Whether Hamas follow that policy because they hope Israel will spare their soldiers just in case, or whether they do it in hopes that civilians will be shot and Hamas can win a publicity victory. I couldn't say.

There dies seem to be a large school of thought that holds Israel to higher standards than Hamas. Is Hamas following humanitarian rules? Is it humanitarian to use human shields, both Israeli and their own people, to protect the army and military infrastructure?

 

[hans kraay fan club]

It needs to be considered that there is a certain difficulty in discriminating between Hamas soldiers and civilians is difficult because the soldiers don't wear uniform. Whether Hamas follow that policy because they hope Israel will spare their soldiers just in case, or whether they do it in hopes that civilians will be shot and Hamas can win a publicity victory. I couldn't say.

There's quite a bit to unpack here.

Israel has slaughtered a couple of thousand children in the last couple of weeks, with their indiscriminate bombing. Were they also 'difficult to distinguish from Hamas soldiers'? When you are indiscriminately raining munitions down on a hemmed in population, from miles away, what people are wearing doesn't seem remotely relevant, does it?

There dies seem to be a large school of thought that holds Israel to higher standards than Hamas.

Hamas are a murderous terrorist organisation. Of course the Israeli government and armed forces should be held to a higher f***ing standard. Good f***ing grief.

 

[Easy 10]

The laws on provision for the basic needs of the population can't apply yet, because Israel isn't in control of Gaza. If and when Hamas surrenders, then Israel will be in control and will have the chance to look after the population if they want to. They can't do it now.

It needs to be considered that there is a certain difficulty in discriminating between Hamas soldiers and civilians is difficult because the soldiers don't wear uniform. Whether Hamas follow that policy because they hope Israel will spare their soldiers just in case, or whether they do it in hopes that civilians will be shot and Hamas can win a publicity victory. I couldn't say.

There dies seem to be a large school of thought that holds Israel to higher standards than Hamas. Is Hamas following humanitarian rules? Is it humanitarian to use human shields, both Israeli and their own people, to protect the army and military infrastructure?

Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Israel is a nation state and a member of the UN, so of COURSE it should be held to higher standards.

 

[pb21]

It needs to be considered that there is a certain difficulty in discriminating between Hamas soldiers and civilians is difficult because the soldiers don't wear uniform. Whether Hamas follow that policy because they hope Israel will spare their soldiers just in case, or whether they do it in hopes that civilians will be shot and Hamas can win a publicity victory. I couldn't say.

It shouldn't matter if its a deliberate Hamas ploy or not.

If the enemy decide to hide in/under a hospital, you don't blow up a hospital full of patients to get to a few enemies. At least IMO.

 

[WATFORD zero]

The laws on provision for the basic needs of the population can't apply yet, because Israel isn't in control of Gaza. If and when Hamas surrenders, then Israel will be in control and will have the chance to look after the population if they want to. They can't do it now.

It needs to be considered that there is a certain difficulty in discriminating between Hamas soldiers and civilians is difficult because the soldiers don't wear uniform. Whether Hamas follow that policy because they hope Israel will spare their soldiers just in case, or whether they do it in hopes that civilians will be shot and Hamas can win a publicity victory. I couldn't say.

There dies seem to be a large school of thought that holds Israel to higher standards than Hamas. Is Hamas following humanitarian rules? Is it humanitarian to use human shields, both Israeli and their own people, to protect the army and military infrastructure?

Well they can hardly hold them to the same standards as Palestine because Britain, USA and eight other countries in the G20 refuse to recognise Palestine as a state and as such, have no rights or standards

 

[Bakero]

1. The laws on provision for the basic needs of the population can't apply yet, because Israel isn't in control of Gaza. If and when Hamas surrenders, then Israel will be in control and will have the chance to look after the population if they want to. They can't do it now.

2. It needs to be considered that there is a certain difficulty in discriminating between Hamas soldiers and civilians is difficult because the soldiers don't wear uniform. Whether Hamas follow that policy because they hope Israel will spare their soldiers just in case, or whether they do it in hopes that civilians will be shot and Hamas can win a publicity victory. I couldn't say.

3. here dies seem to be a large school of thought that holds Israel to higher standards than Hamas. Is Hamas following humanitarian rules? Is it humanitarian to use human shields, both Israeli and their own people, to protect the army and military infrastructure?

I've numbered your paragraphs so I can respond to each in turn.

1. It's not that they've failed to provide for the Gazans basic needs but that they actively cut off their supplies of electricity, food, gas and water. The UN, legal experts, and EU diplomats declared this was in violation of international law.


2. Airstrikes have hit residential buildings, hospitals, schools, markets and even UNRWA buildings. You blame this on the lack of uniforms?

Read up on the Dahiya Doctrine, which outlines Israel's policy of using disproportionate force.



3. Do you hold Hamas, who don't forget have been labelled a terrorist group by the US, UK and EU, to the same standard as the Israeli government?

 

[dsr-burnley]

I've numbered your paragraphs so I can respond to each in turn.

1. It's not that they've failed to provide for the Gazans basic needs but that they actively cut off their supplies of electricity, food, gas and water. The UN, legal experts, and EU diplomats declared this was in violation of international law.


2. Airstrikes have hit residential buildings, hospitals, schools, markets and even UNRWA buildings. You blame this on the lack of uniforms?

Read up on the Dahiya Doctrine, which outlines Israel's policy of using disproportionate force.



3. Do you hold Hamas, who don't forget have been labelled a terrorist group by the US, UK and EU, to the same standard as the Israeli government?

1. To be fair, that's a crime that the UK has been guilty of in its time. During WW2 there was a lot of effort put in to stop food getting to Germany, by sea at any rate. Fortunately the EU and UN weren't around to tell Churchill it was wrong.

Have Israel actively cut off the power and water? I thought they had just passively refused to supply it. It might have been advisable for Hamas to negotiate in advance to see whether Israel would have been willing to continue to supply them with basic needs after the war had started.

2. Again, this is war. We did the same. Hamas can't (and probably don't) expect Israel to avoid waging war just because the population of Palestine is used as a human shield.

3. Yes, I hold Hamas to the same standard as the Israeli government. Hamas is a de facto government, it is made up of human beings, and our expectations should be that they should behave as such. Our expectations will not be realised because they are homicidal terrorists bent on genocide, but that doesn't excuse their behaviour.

 

[Zeberdi]

The laws on provision for the basic needs of the population can't apply yet, because Israel isn't in control of Gaza. If and when Hamas surrenders, then Israel will be in control and will have the chance to look after the population if they want to. They can't do it now.

It needs to be considered that there is a certain difficulty in discriminating between Hamas soldiers and civilians is difficult because the soldiers don't wear uniform. Whether Hamas follow that policy because they hope Israel will spare their soldiers just in case, or whether they do it in hopes that civilians will be shot and Hamas can win a publicity victory. I couldn't say.

There dies seem to be a large school of thought that holds Israel to higher standards than Hamas. Is Hamas following humanitarian rules? Is it humanitarian to use human shields, both Israeli and their own people, to protect the army and military infrastructure?

Sorry to directly contradict you - but you are incorrect in your understanding of international law - they absolutely do apply to Israel and it’s a bizarre assertion to say that during armed conflict the Hague and Geneva Conventions and humanitarian international laws don’t! I think you are misguided in your view too, that but for the current war in Gaza, Israel would want to look after the population - she’s had every chance to since 1948:

Not only can Israel provide fuel, water and food now, by allowing an ‘ humanitarian pause‘ but she is under legal obligation to - International laws apply in peacetime and in conflict when it comes to the Occupier as I have stated several times on this thread, including just again today with links to the specific laws that apply. Millions of Palestinians are in desperate need of basic provision of food, medical supplies, water and fuel - do you think Israel has a right under international law to withhold those basic requirements from millions of civilians as she has done since 9th October - because if so that’s truly shocking?

Israel has been in overall control of Gaza since 1967 6 Day War when she rolled her tanks into that small strip of land and henceforth subjected the Palestinian people to the most horrendous hardships and abuse CONTRARY to numerous international laws including, with the use of blockades, decades of controlling the passage of services and goods into Gaza, severely restricting the movement of Palestinians and causing economic hardship and an ongoing humanitarian crises (under the auspices of stopping Hamas from smuggling arms in - although Hamas was smuggling arms into Gaza through underground tunnels and from boats in the Med and not through the Rafah border crossings into Egypt or the Erez crossing into Israel) - Hamas is the self-ruling political party of Gaza and rules by paramilitary enforcement but it is Israel that ‘controls’ the enclave and it’s overall access to fuel, water, food and services and the right to live on the land - it always has been.

As for the ‘whataboutery’ of Hamas not abiding by ‘rules’ - again this shows a little lack of understanding in the way international law works - it can not arbitrarily be applied to anyone in the world nor even every state - and it is not like domestic law that’s set down in legislation by parliament- the legal obligations of international human rights laws and Conventions are created primarily by the weight of State signatures - only those States that have ratified and signed treaties are legally bound by them to the extent that they may be enforceable by the UN - even then it’s a matter of interpretation and declaration by the International Court of Justice rather than enforcement - it is the UN Security Council that considers methods of compulsion eg sanctions etc - and that too is a pretty toothless tiger when the efficacy of the Security Council is impeded by the power of veto. I’m pretty sure that Hamas (not withstanding that it is not a ‘state’ ) - hasn’t signed up to any international treaties or Conventions on human rights although international law does recognise that in principle all those in engaged armed conflict should observe the Geneva Convention.

How the Court Works | INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE

www.icj-cij.org

Edit - Re. your comments of using civilians as human shields and Hamas not wearing uniforms - under international law (which applies!) “If an attack fails to discriminate between combatants and civilians or would be expected to cause disproportionate harm to the civilian population compared to the military gain, it is also prohibited.”

How Does International Humanitarian Law Apply in Israel and Gaza?

In the aftermath of Hamas’s attack on Israel, and Israel’s ensuing bombardment campaign of the Gaza Strip, there is much discussion, by both experts and non-experts, about international humanitarian law (IHL), the law governing armed conflict and military occupation, and its application in the...

www.hrw.org

 

[Bakero]

1. To be fair, that's a crime that the UK has been guilty of in its time. During WW2 there was a lot of effort put in to stop food getting to Germany, by sea at any rate. Fortunately the EU and UN weren't around to tell Churchill it was wrong.

Have Israel actively cut off the power and water? I thought they had just passively refused to supply it. It might have been advisable for Hamas to negotiate in advance to see whether Israel would have been willing to continue to supply them with basic needs after the war had started.

2. Again, this is war. We did the same. Hamas can't (and probably don't) expect Israel to avoid waging war just because the population of Palestine is used as a human shield.

3. Yes, I hold Hamas to the same standard as the Israeli government. Hamas is a de facto government, it is made up of human beings, and our expectations should be that they should behave as such. Our expectations will not be realised because they are homicidal terrorists bent on genocide, but that doesn't excuse their behaviour.

1. So war crimes are OK because you believe the UK have committed some in the past? That's not how international law works, I'm afraid.

Yes, they actively cut supplies. Gaza had been under partial blockade since 2005 but after the Hamas attacks, a full blockade was imposed. Here's a quote from the Israeli Defence Minister:

""We are putting a complete siege on Gaza … No electricity, no food, no water, no gas – it’s all closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,"

Following accusations of collective punishment, the Israeli Energy Minister stated, "They will not receive a single drop of water until they leave the world."

2. A war doesn't mean a military force can act with impunity. Airstrikes, which are bound to kill countless civilians, majorly children, are prohibited by international law.

Let's do a simple thought experiment. If Hamas were hiding amongst Jewish Israeli citizens, would we see the same air strikes bringing death and destruction? Would the dead Israeli children be seen as collateral damage?

The "this is war" line reminds me of a statement by a Whitehouse spokesperson the other day who glibly stated "there have been civilian casualties and there will be more. That's war. It's brutal, it's ugly, it's messy". It wasn't long ago that the same official was chocking back the tears when talking about civilian deaths in Ukraine. What's the difference? One group of people has been utterly dehumanised to the extent that thousands of dead kids is met with a shrug of the shoulders and an "it's war".

3. So why is it you condemn the atrocities of Hamas but appear somewhat indifferent to war crimes in Gaza?

 

[Bakero]

A final coda to add to the above. The UN have today warned of the risk of infant deaths due to dehydration. Not airstrikes trying to kill Hamas. Not Hamas missiles gone awry. Dehydration. Dehydration due to the ongoing siege and the fact that just 5% of normal supplies are available.

This isn't war. This is a disgrace.

 

[borat]

Israel using White Phosphorus in Lebanon

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

The fog of war in Gaza is being exploited and used as an excuse to marginalise the Palestinians further, the Israeli government will do nothing and Western governments are silent.

Sadly the "western" governments are fully complicit in this genocide, are they still guilt ridden since WW2, not to stand up to Israel's government, not in my name.

Edit reason, bad spelling

 

[nicko31]

Israel using White Phosphorus in Lebanon

Another day, another International law breach.

A reminder phosphorus is an alkali metal and is highly reactive on contact with water. Its hideous....

Upon contact, white phosphorus can burn people, thermally and chemically, down to the bone as it is highly soluble in fat and therefore in human flesh. White phosphorus fragments can exacerbate wounds even after treatment and can enter the bloodstream and cause multiple organ failure.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Israel using White Phosphorus in Lebanon

Sadly Israel has a history of using illegal weapons, much like the Syrian and Russian governments. Yet, for some bizarre reason, those of us that compare the Israeli government to other similar regimes are called anti-Semitic.

 

[Bakero]

Sadly the "western" governments are fully complicate in this genocide, are they still guilt ridden since WW2, not to stand up to Israel's government, not in my name.

The memory of the holocaust plays a part but there are other factors. Firstly, having a key ally in the region is crucial for the US's strategic ambitions. Secondly, you have the Christian Zionists who believe we need the Jews in the Holy Land to beget the second coming. I appreciate that last point might seem a little outré but these fellows have had sway across the pond since before the founding fathers.