[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[nicko31]

I don't think it's hyperbole to say she is the worst mainstream politician we've ever had. Utterly odious indeed.

Her own racial prejudices are spilling over into her role as Home Sec, just awful.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

America vetos anything that would compel the Israelis to do anything they refuse to do. With their government often being the right wing Likud in a coalition with raving zealots, any whiff of rolling back the occupation of the west bank by 'settlers' claiming their biblical heritage, for example, is off the agenda.

I can't see any progress being made till America changes it's 'my Israel, right or wrong' policy. The irony is that if it did that, and if Israel put its right wing nutters in their place, they could acquire the moral upper hand over Gaza, and negotiate either a settlement or, if Hamas won't disarm, full invasion and take over, rebuilding a modern state with encouragement of emergence of non sectarian Palestinian political leadership, guaranteed by a permanent Israeli armed presence, rather like a turbo version of Northern Ireland before the peace process (which seems to be what the Israelis are doing now, albeit left to their own devices they will simply destroy without rebuilding, I suspect).

Ironically perhaps, I think the biggest obstacle to lasting peace is the Jewish settlements in the West Bank, rather than the whirling dervish that is Palestine.

My thoughts exactly. That has been my suggestion too. But judging by their PM today, I don’t think we are anywhere near!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

My thoughts exactly. That has been my suggestion too. But judging by their PM today, I don’t think we are anywhere near!

Ah, the PM....

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

Ah, the PM....

Exactly. He’s a f***ing extremist. Don’t know how anyone could do what he can do and not feel awful. I agree with their right to defend, I agree Hamas need eradicating, but for reasons said before, it is impossible. But christ, he knows he is killing innocents with these bombardments and he doesn’t care.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

How can you negotiate with a death cult? Their stated intention is to kill all the Jews

Could say the same about Israel with the Palestinians? Hamas do not represent innocent Palestinians. There are always methods you can use which mean diplomacy. I would love Hamas to be blown off the earth, but it’s not going to happen, in fact, it is going to create more islamic extremism.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Exactly. He’s a f***ing extremist. Don’t know how anyone could do what he can do and not feel awful. I agree with their right to defend, I agree Hamas need eradicating, but for reasons said before, it is impossible. But christ, he knows he is killing innocents with these bombardments and he doesn’t care.

For a moment there I thought we were discussing our own PM (with respect to today's disciplining one of his MPs for calling for a cease fire). But, no. I'm not sure what our PM is. A chancer, perhaps. Not a leader.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

Probably true, unless the Israeli government is committed to keeping a significant military presence in Gaza which I think extremely unlikely. Therefore their minimum (and completely understandable) operational goal will be the destruction of Hamas capability to launch further major terrorist atrocities against Israel at least in the short term. Plus targeting Hamas leadership and infrastructure on an ongoing basis to degrade their control in Gaza. Which is why any talk of a permanent ceasefire at this point seems faintly ridiculous.

Yeah that’s a good point. Agree.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

For a moment there I thought we were discussing our own PM (with respect to today's disciplining one of his MPs for calling for a cease fire). But, no. I'm not sure what our PM is. A chancer, perhaps. Not a leader.

Oh, he’s just as bad. Blokes a bloody moron. Don’t get me started on that bunch who are currently ‘in charge’.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Oh, he’s just as bad. Blokes a bloody moron. Don’t get me started on that bunch who are currently ‘in charge’.

Yes. And yet....I read recently of someone who won't vote them out (aka vote Labour) because Labour want to stop private school fees being tax free ('charity' status schools).

The @Weststander codicil (with which I agree) notwithstanding.....f*** me; prioritizing first world problems or what?

There are thousands of people dying out there, and America, with us swimming behind, like those little fish that eat parasites off the skin of bigger fish, are sitting on hands, tutting, and doing the square root of f*** all to help. Other than sell arms.

That, dear former PM, thick lizzy, actually is a disgrace. Not cheese sales. FFS.

 

[NorthstandRacoon]

Yes. And yet....I read recently of someone who won't vote them out (aka vote Labour) because Labour want to stop private school fees being tax free ('charity' status schools).

The @Weststander codicil (with which I agree) notwithstanding.....f*** me; prioritizing first world problems or what?

There are thousands of people dying out there, and America, with us swimming behind, like those little fish that eat parasites off the skin of bigger fish, are sitting on hands, tutting, and doing the square root of f*** all to help. Other than sell arms.

That, dear former PM, thick lizzy, actually is a disgrace. Not cheese sales. FFS.

That set you off. Yeah, agree.

 

[dsr-burnley]

Could say the same about Israel with the Palestinians? Hamas do not represent innocent Palestinians. There are always methods you can use which mean diplomacy. I would love Hamas to be blown off the earth, but it’s not going to happen, in fact, it is going to create more islamic extremism.

Hamas are the government of Palestine. It's a sad truth that they do represent ordinary Palestinians, whether the ordinary Palestinians want them to or not.

There is no means of com[promise between the man who wants a baby dead, and a man who wants a baby to live. They cannot both have just part of what they want. Only one can be pleased. Obviously Israel does have the alternative of simply closing the border, letting Palestine fend for itself with support from whoever wishes to give it them, but I suspect that would be considered inhumane as well. One thing can be stated with near certainty - that no Palestinians will be allowed to cross the border from Gaza as long as Hamas are in charge.

(Even if Palestine's infrastructure was intact, they would still be struggling. It's pretty clear that the Israeli policy of supplying fuel and water to Gaza is going to stop, probably forever. They are going to have to make their own via desalination plants. They used to have an aquifer, but they didn't maintain it and it is contaminated by pollution and sea water.)

A tiny bright spark - after WW2, the German support for Hitler faded away very quickly as the Germans realised what an evil government had been representing them. Part of this was by showing every adult and near-adult German a film of the atrocities such as Belsen. Perhaps the Palestinians could be shown what has been done in their name and see if that helps. Though possibly the religious indoctrination is even more deep rooted than the Nazi indoctrination; so many of them may be too far gone down the "Jews are evil" line to ever get over it.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Hamas are the government of Palestine. It's a sad truth that they do represent ordinary Palestinians, whether the ordinary Palestinians want them to or not.

There is no means of com[promise between the man who wants a baby dead, and a man who wants a baby to live. They cannot both have just part of what they want. Only one can be pleased. Obviously Israel does have the alternative of simply closing the border, letting Palestine fend for itself with support from whoever wishes to give it them, but I suspect that would be considered inhumane as well. One thing can be stated with near certainty - that no Palestinians will be allowed to cross the border from Gaza as long as Hamas are in charge.

(Even if Palestine's infrastructure was intact, they would still be struggling. It's pretty clear that the Israeli policy of supplying fuel and water to Gaza is going to stop, probably forever. They are going to have to make their own via desalination plants. They used to have an aquifer, but they didn't maintain it and it is contaminated by pollution and sea water.)

A tiny bright spark - after WW2, the German support for Hitler faded away very quickly as the Germans realised what an evil government had been representing them. Part of this was by showing every adult and near-adult German a film of the atrocities such as Belsen. Perhaps the Palestinians could be shown what has been done in their name and see if that helps. Though possibly the religious indoctrination is even more deep rooted than the Nazi indoctrination; so many of them may be too far gone down the "Jews are evil" line to ever get over it.

Yes. Sadly, I can't disagree.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Hamas are the government of Palestine. It's a sad truth that they do represent ordinary Palestinians, whether the ordinary Palestinians want them to or not.

There is no means of com[promise between the man who wants a baby dead, and a man who wants a baby to live. They cannot both have just part of what they want. Only one can be pleased. Obviously Israel does have the alternative of simply closing the border, letting Palestine fend for itself with support from whoever wishes to give it them, but I suspect that would be considered inhumane as well. One thing can be stated with near certainty - that no Palestinians will be allowed to cross the border from Gaza as long as Hamas are in charge.

(Even if Palestine's infrastructure was intact, they would still be struggling. It's pretty clear that the Israeli policy of supplying fuel and water to Gaza is going to stop, probably forever. They are going to have to make their own via desalination plants. They used to have an aquifer, but they didn't maintain it and it is contaminated by pollution and sea water.)

A tiny bright spark - after WW2, the German support for Hitler faded away very quickly as the Germans realised what an evil government had been representing them. Part of this was by showing every adult and near-adult German a film of the atrocities such as Belsen. Perhaps the Palestinians could be shown what has been done in their name and see if that helps. Though possibly the religious indoctrination is even more deep rooted than the Nazi indoctrination; so many of them may be too far gone down the "Jews are evil" line to ever get over it.

I think you have got ‘Palestine’, ‘Gaza’ and ‘Hamas’ a little confused, tbh.

Where do you think ‘Palestine’ is, exactly?

Which people do you think Hamas govern?

Does your suggestion of ‘leaving Palestine to fend for itself’ include removing the 750,000 Israeli settlers from the West Bank?

 

[dsr-burnley]

I think you have got ‘Palestine’, ‘Gaza’ and ‘Hamas’ a little confused, tbh.

Where do you think ‘Palestine’ is, exactly?

Which people do you think Hamas govern?

Does your suggestion of ‘leaving Palestine to fend for itself’ include removing the 750,000 Israeli settlers from the West Bank?

True enough, Hamas is only the government of Gaza. The rest of Palestine seems to be keeping out of it.

I didn't suggest that Israel should leave Hamas in charge and let Palestine fend for itself, I only said that it is an option (if they decide for whatever reason not to pursue Hamas to the end). I doubt that Israel would withdraw from the West Bank on that basis.

 

[Easy 10]

Just watched a shattering Panorama programme tonight which I'd recorded a few days ago, showing a young Palestinian family (man, wife, two toddlers) cowering in their flat in southern Gaza as the airstrikes hammered down all around them. The curtains at their windows were visibly billowing at the impact of the nearby blasts, the noise and the booms were absolutely terrifying. Death could arrive at any moment, and they knew it. The dad was a documentary maker who filmed it all. They somehow survived that night, but then at the end of the programme, they reported that the father had been killed last week.

The atrocities Hamas committed on October 7th are unforgivable. But the totally indiscriminate response by the Israeli's is equally so. This is not "targeted" as they claim. Its quite clear they don't really give a f*ck where their bombs land, the gloves are off now. It really is indiscriminate.

Its impossible to take sides in this for me. Both have, and are, committing crimes against humanity. I was as disgusted and revolted as everyone with what Hamas committed to trigger this. But the poor bastards now being hemmed in and systematically massacred as a result certainly don't deserve this.

Its so depressing.

 

[Zeberdi]

True enough, Hamas is only the government of Gaza. The rest of Palestine seems to be keeping out of it.

I didn't suggest that Israel should leave Hamas in charge and let Palestine fend for itself, I only said that it is an option (if they decide for whatever reason not to pursue Hamas to the end). I doubt that Israel would withdraw from the West Bank on that basis.

As @hans kraay fan club said, Hamas is only the ruling administration in Gaza so it isnt an option to ‘leave Palestine’ to it. ‘Palestine’ or rather the Occupied Palestinian Territories, include the West Bank and parts of the Golan Heights and much of this land is now occupied by illegal settlements.

- Unfortunately the ‘rest of ‘Palestine’ isn’t keeping out of it’ either - there is a violent conflict going in the West Bank too - whole villages are being emptied (see below link) and the IDF are carrying out armed raids in to cities and refugee camps in the West Bank (and encountering violent resistance)

‘Israeli human rights activist Guy Hirschfeld told AFP the settlers had been stepping up efforts to throw Palestinians off their land since the start of the conflict. "The settlers taking advantage of the war to finish cleaning area C from non-Jewish people," he told AFP, referring to an administrative area covering 60 percent of the West Bank that is controlled by the Israeli army.’

https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...xpelled-from-w-bank-village-as-gaza-war-rages

- Rockets are also being exchanged between Israel and Hezbollah in the Golan Heights and scores of Palestinian Israeli citizens are being rounded up in Israel. The conflict just isn’t confined to Gaza.

I think Israel will have to pursue Hamas to the end whatever the ‘end‘ looks like to Israel, who knows? I don’t even think Israel does. - and I agree, it is highly highly unlikely the current Israel government would concede the West Bank to an independent state for Palestine and any State of Palestine can’t just be Gaza either and left for Hamas to run, it would have to include the West Bank which is under the Palestinian Authority and Abbas, leader of Fatah which has renounced terrorism.

However, the one thing Israel can not do, is let 2 million Gazans fend for themselves - as the Occupier, under international law, (and the Hague Convention ) Israel has an obligation to supply basic needs (fuel, water, food, etc ) to those living under its occupation - as much as Israel might want to rid themselves of Gaza and it’s civilians - it can’t unless it grants Palestinians the right to self-determination and a State of their own.

Btw - Gazans already make their own water through desalination plants and have groundwater wells and a coastal fresh water aquifer but the rest is piped in from Israel - what Gaza needs though is fuel which they are not being supplied with - without fuel, the desalination plants don’t work and water can not be pumped to where its needed. ( Fuel has been cut imports have completely since 9/10 and Gaza’s power plant stopped working on 11th.)

Israel has long weaponised water to oppress Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank

The Occupation of Water

The legacy of Israel’s 50-year occupation of the Palestinian territories has been systematic human rights violations on a mass scale. One of its consequences is the impact of Israel’s discriminatory policies on Palestinians’ access to clean and safe water.

www.amnesty.org

It’s complicated!

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

Hamas are a terrorist group and murdered approximately 1400 innocent people.

The IDF lead by Netanyahu has declared they are war and have so far indiscriminately bombed areas killing approximately 7/8000 people so far and displacing approximately over a million people. Tell me if I’m wrong but surely Netanyahu response under international law is disproportionate and would be classed as a war crime ?

Netanyahu in Hebrew means “God has given”
is this what any god would want.

 

[borat]

Hamas are a terrorist group and murdered approximately 1400 innocent people.

The IDF lead by Netanyahu has declared they are war and have so far indiscriminately bombed areas killing approximately 7/8000 people so far and displacing approximately over a million people. Tell me if I’m wrong but surely Netanyahu response under international law is disproportionate and would be classed as a war crime ?

Netanyahu in Hebrew means “God has given”
is this what any god would want.

Let's also not pretend Israeli war crimes and brutal occupation started in the last few weeks. A framing that you see on nearly all UK media interviews. Israel has been allowed to break international law for decades.

 

[Zeberdi]

Hamas are a terrorist group and murdered approximately 1400 innocent people.

The IDF lead by Netanyahu has declared they are war and have so far indiscriminately bombed areas killing approximately 7/8000 people so far and displacing approximately over a million people. Tell me if I’m wrong but surely Netanyahu response under international law is disproportionate and would be classed as a war crime ?

Netanyahu in Hebrew means “God has given”
is this what any god would want.

Yes - As we have said many times in this thread - What Israel is doing is ‘collective punishment’ - this was outlawed under the 4th protocol of the Geneva Convention under Article 33

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-33#:~:text=Collective%20penalties%20and%20likewise%20all,and%20their%20property%20are%20prohibited.

and they are non-reciprocal (ie doent matter what the other side has done to ‘deserve it’)

Israel is also likely in violation of a number of International Humanitarian Laws which covers both hostilities and Occupation (control over territory for which there is no consent) - the Occupier must provide for basic needs of the population.

Fundamentally, Israel is under legal obligation to take all ‘feasible’ precautions to protect Palestinian civilians both in the current outbreak of war and at all times during the Occupation - you don’t need to look very far the see numerous examples of those laws being violated - you could start by reading back a little bit on the thread

“If an attack fails to discriminate between combatants and civilians or would be expected to cause disproportionate harm to the civilian population compared to the military gain, it is also prohibited”

How Does International Humanitarian Law Apply in Israel and Gaza?

In the aftermath of Hamas’s attack on Israel, and Israel’s ensuing bombardment campaign of the Gaza Strip, there is much discussion, by both experts and non-experts, about international humanitarian law (IHL), the law governing armed conflict and military occupation, and its application in the...

www.hrw.org

Probably best to leave God out of it - charged with enough religiosity as it is with people claiming to know what God wants …

 

[Bakero]

A tiny bright spark - after WW2, the German support for Hitler faded away very quickly as the Germans realised what an evil government had been representing them. Part of this was by showing every adult and near-adult German a film of the atrocities such as Belsen. Perhaps the Palestinians could be shown what has been done in their name and see if that helps. Though possibly the religious indoctrination is even more deep rooted than the Nazi indoctrination; so many of them may be too far gone down the "Jews are evil" line to ever get over it.

Given the asymmetric death toll in the last three weeks (8000+ Palestinians dead, ~1300 Israelis), are you hopeful that showing civilians videos of Hamas's crimes would help.

Bear in mind their homes, schools, hospitals and businesses have been destroyed too.

Added to that, they have the collective memory of decades of violence, oppression and destruction. I think you'll have a hard time convincing them that they are the baddies.