[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Krafty]

The Gaza death toll rises to more than 7,000, including 2,900+ children, an increase of more than 500 deaths since Wednesday (BBC)

During today's match, will there be a moment to remember those who have lost their lives in this horrible conflict?

 

[Seagull58]

I'm not sure it addresses any points on this thread at all.

But you don't visit this thread to engage in good faith debate. It's never been your style, and it's never likely to be.

But it does. Finkelstein is arguing that Israel must be allowed to follow through on its plan to attack and destroy Hamas in Gaza regardless of the collateral damage to Palestinian civilians. He says that peace and security is not possible until Hamas is eradicated. That extreme viewpoint is very pertinent to the thread topic, isn't it?

 

[Seagull58]

But it does. Finkelstein is arguing that Israel must be allowed to follow through on its plan to attack and destroy Hamas in Gaza regardless of the collateral damage to Palestinian civilians. He says that peace and security is not possible until Hamas is eradicated. That extreme viewpoint is very pertinent to the thread topic, isn't it?

cont.
Some would argue that Israel should not enter Gaza at all, some would argue they should only enter to release the hostages, some would argue that they are justified in entering to destroy Hsmas but only with minimal civilian casualties, snd some may agree with Finkelstein's view.

 

[aolstudios]

A thread well worth digesting

 

[Zeberdi]

A thread well worth digesting

You need to stop using X as your source of news on here - it doesn’t make any one look clever trying to score points using twitter accounts to argue the facts of a serious current affairs issue - no one with a modicum of sense on this thread will view these seriously -

Perhaps some background reading into how third parties can create fake social media content and use bots to replicate replies ….

X criticised for enabling spread of Israel-Hamas disinformation | X | The Guardian

Elon Musk endorsed users who have posted ‘wrong and unverifiable things’ while paid-for accounts spread fake news

amp.theguardian.com

How is Fake News Spread? Bots, People like You, Trolls, and Microtargeting | Center for Information Technology and Society - UC Santa Barbara

How is Fake News Spread? Bots, People like You, Trolls, and Microtargeting Panel

cits.ucsb.edu

"This is probably the first AI war" | CTech

Bot armies that anyone can activate on WhatsApp, software to easily hack photos, and chatbots that generate news that didn't happen: media expert Dr. Alex Gekker explains how the decline of Twitter and the rise of artificial intelligence changed everything in the battle of advocacy

www.calcalistech.com

67 X accounts spread coordinated Israel-Hamas disinformation: report

Combined, the accounts’ misleading posts and videos have had millions of views.

www.nbcnews.com

Dealing with propaganda, misinformation and fake news - Democratic Schools for All - www.coe.int

www.coe.int

 

[dsr-burnley]

But it does. Finkelstein is arguing that Israel must be allowed to follow through on its plan to attack and destroy Hamas in Gaza regardless of the collateral damage to Palestinian civilians. He says that peace and security is not possible until Hamas is eradicated. That extreme viewpoint is very pertinent to the thread topic, isn't it?

I don't think it's an extreme viewpoint to say that peace and security is not possible if Hamas are still in power. Hamas is an organisation dedicated to the murder of Jews, as the events of a fortnight ago brought into stark focus. The reason their border with Israel is restricted is obvious as well as controversial, but the reason the border with egypt is also closed is not because Israel want it to be; it's because Egypt finds Hamas too troublesome to let Palestinians into their country as well. If Hamas is in charge, the border restrictions can never be taken away, and the houses of Israel will still have the "safe rooms". You cannot trust Hamas to be peaceful, not now and (I suspect) not ever.

 

[aolstudios]

You need to stop using X as your source of news on here - it doesn’t make any one look clever trying to score points using twitter accounts to argue the facts of a serious current affairs issue - no one with a modicum of sense on this thread will these seriously -

Perhaps some background reading into how third parties can create fake social media content and use bots to replicate replies ….

X criticised for enabling spread of Israel-Hamas disinformation | X | The Guardian

Elon Musk endorsed users who have posted ‘wrong and unverifiable things’ while paid-for accounts spread fake news

amp.theguardian.com

How is Fake News Spread? Bots, People like You, Trolls, and Microtargeting | Center for Information Technology and Society - UC Santa Barbara

How is Fake News Spread? Bots, People like You, Trolls, and Microtargeting Panel

cits.ucsb.edu

"This is probably the first AI war" | CTech

Bot armies that anyone can activate on WhatsApp, software to easily hack photos, and chatbots that generate news that didn't happen: media expert Dr. Alex Gekker explains how the decline of Twitter and the rise of artificial intelligence changed everything in the battle of advocacy

www.calcalistech.com

67 X accounts spread coordinated Israel-Hamas disinformation: report

Combined, the accounts’ misleading posts and videos have had millions of views.

www.nbcnews.com

Dealing with propaganda, misinformation and fake news - Democratic Schools for All - www.coe.int

www.coe.int

He makes a bunch of well made, backed up points & is a respected journalist. You can't just dismiss him for being on Twitter. Everyone's on Twitter/X.
Ridiculous, condescending post

 

[aolstudios]

I don't think it's an extreme viewpoint to say that peace and security is not possible if Hamas are still in power. Hamas is an organisation dedicated to the murder of Jews, as the events of a fortnight ago brought into stark focus. The reason their border with Israel is restricted is obvious as well as controversial, but the reason the border with egypt is also closed is not because Israel want it to be; it's because Egypt finds Hamas too troublesome to let Palestinians into their country as well. If Hamas is in charge, the border restrictions can never be taken away, and the houses of Israel will still have the "safe rooms". You cannot trust Hamas to be peaceful, not now and (I suspect) not ever.

Well, exactly

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

hmmm...

I wondered why the Americans had sent a humongous war ship type thing to the Mediterranean sea on the pretence of protecting Israel was the first assumption. I guess it is a "preemptive" strike.

This could escalate pretty quickly, I do hope not.

US strikes Syria bases used by Iran-linked groups

It follows a series of recent attacks on US bases in Iraq and Syria by Iranian-backed militia, officials say.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Zeberdi]

He makes a bunch of well made, backed up points & is a respected journalist. You can't just dismiss him for being on Twitter. Everyone's on Twitter/X.
Ridiculous, condescending post

Can you verify all the accounts that followed the tweet?

 

[Zeberdi]

I don't think it's an extreme viewpoint to say that peace and security is not possible if Hamas are still in power.

I don’t think anyone on this thread have ever denied that - Hamas is a terrorist organisation who does not want peace - it is arguably an extremist view point however to support/condone Israel’s far-right extremist policies that attempts to remove Hamas in such a way as to cause the death of 7,000 civilians ( including 1000’s of children ) , that commits (allegedly) war crimes and cuts off food, fuel and water to the entire population….that’s not ok.

Hamas is an organisation dedicated to the murder of Jews, as the events of a fortnight ago brought into stark focus.

Hamas is an organisation dedicated to the destruction of Israel

The reason their border with Israel is restricted is obvious as well as controversial,
but the reason the border with egypt is also closed is not because Israel want it to be; it's because Egypt finds Hamas too troublesome to let Palestinians into their country as well.

Partly that yes but a/ Gaza has the PIJ terrorists, Hezbollah are almost certainly operational inside Gaza plus a number of other groups - so it will still be a security issue ( and terrorist groups are working in the Sinai Peninsula so it works both ways) even if the Hamas leadership of Gaza is removed (Hamas will still be present in Gaza and it’s overall leadership will certainly not be destroyed unless the US carries it’s Global War on Terror to Qatar and Turkey.
b/ As far as the Israel-Hamas war specifically, Egypt does not want 2 million sick, injured, displaced Palestinian refugees pouring into the Sinai desert with no infrastructure - nor does the UN - the drive to open the Rafah crossing is to get aid into Gaza - (and westerners out) its already a humanitarian nightmare for Palestinians where they are in South Gaza - including being at risk from Israeli rocket attacks. (Israel has no control over the Rafah crossing though - that was conceded to Egypt in 1979 )

If Hamas is in charge, the border restrictions can never be taken away … You cannot trust Hamas to be peaceful, not now and (I suspect) not ever.

No one could argue with that.

 

[Seagull58]

I don't think it's an extreme viewpoint to say that peace and security is not possible if Hamas are still in power. Hamas is an organisation dedicated to the murder of Jews, as the events of a fortnight ago brought into stark focus. The reason their border with Israel is restricted is obvious as well as controversial, but the reason the border with egypt is also closed is not because Israel want it to be; it's because Egypt finds Hamas too troublesome to let Palestinians into their country as well. If Hamas is in charge, the border restrictions can never be taken away, and the houses of Israel will still have the "safe rooms". You cannot trust Hamas to be peaceful, not now and (I suspect) not ever.

I was suggesting that it is an extreme viewpoint to say that Israel should do whatever is necessary to destroy Hamas irrespective of the number of civilians that may be killed in the process, for example carpet bombing residential areas because Hamas has personnel and equipment there.

 

[aolstudios]

Essential background. (Anyone not liking that it's a twitter thread, feel free to fact check & debate)

 

[Bakero]

A thread well worth digesting

Some questionable characters are involved, no doubt. But I don't see how that detracts from the overall message of the demonstrations. The fact is thousands are dying and it's a humanitarian disaster. Large numbers of people in the UK and worldwide don't back the Israeli military's right to act with impunity.

 

[Bakero]

Essential background. (Anyone not liking that it's a twitter thread, feel free to fact check & debate)

A bit one-sided, don't you think?

Just to pick up on a few spurious points:

• They may not have been an official nation but they were a people living on that land and were displaced. To say these people have no historical connection to the land is just nonsense.
• Why would the local Arab population have embraced the UN plan in the 40s?
• It ignores Israel's continuous expansionist policies.
• It suggests Gaza has been run without Israeli interference since 2005, ignoring the blockade.

 

[pb21]

Essential background. (Anyone not liking that it's a twitter thread, feel free to fact check & debate)

I have just had a look through that and there are some 'interesting' points/views, that I am not sure are correct or accurate, certainly doesn't add up to what I understand, but I am not an expert. Also seems to be putting words/thoughts into a hypothetical person he is attempting to rebut?

Looking at their other posts I have to question everything they say, it seems that they have an agenda.

 

[Zeberdi]

Essential background. (Anyone not liking that it's a twitter thread, feel free to fact check & debate)

Since this post was clearly in response to my questioning the wisdom of relying on Twitter/X upon which to base an argument- I’ll answer you directly …

No one here, with a moderate knowledge of the issues takes those maps you posted seriously since they imply an ownership of land by Palestinian peoples that simply has never existed - it was all under the Ottoman Empire until WW1 when it became under British Mandate. All dealt with earlier in this thread.

However, Palestinians have indeed been displaced from land occupation firstly about 50% of the Arab population as a result of the Partition Plan and run off the lands they occupied by Jewish terrorist groups prior to the establishment of Israel

Nov. 29, 1947 | U.N. Partitions Palestine, Allowing for Creation of Israel

On Nov. 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for Palestine to be partitioned between Arabs and Jews, allowing for the formation of the Jewish state of Israel.

archive.nytimes.com

And again in 1967 War - about half a million Palestinians expelled or fled as a result of the Israeli Occupation of the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and the Golan Heights - followed by years of illegal encroachment of Jewish settlements in the Occupied areas - millions of Palestinian people now live in refugee camps in Gaza, the West Bank and around the Middle East. Bringing up propaganda maps to detract from that fact that doesn’t lend any weight to an alternative reality.

FWIW - I am nether ‘Pro-Palestinian’ nor ‘Pro-Israel’ - I am pro-stopping the indiscriminate slaughter of children and thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians and Israeli citizens— And I am against the Netanyahu government as I am against any group that used the tools of terror to further extremist ideologies and political objectives.

 

[aolstudios]

Since this post was clearly in response to my questioning the wisdom of relying on Twitter/X upon which to base an argument- I’ll answer you directly …

No one here, with a moderate knowledge of the issues takes those maps you posted seriously since they imply an ownership of land by Palestinian peoples that simply has never existed - it was all under the Ottoman Empire until WW1 when it became under British Mandate. All dealt with earlier in this thread.
View attachment 168758
However, Palestinians have indeed been displaced from land occupation firstly about 50% of the Arab population as a result of the Partition Plan and run off the lands they occupied by Jewish terrorist groups prior to the establishment of Israel

Nov. 29, 1947 | U.N. Partitions Palestine, Allowing for Creation of Israel

On Nov. 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for Palestine to be partitioned between Arabs and Jews, allowing for the formation of the Jewish state of Israel.

archive.nytimes.com

View attachment 168759
And again in 1967 War - about half a million Palestinians expelled or fled as a result of the Israeli Occupation of the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and the Golan Heights - followed by years of illegal encroachment of Jewish settlements in the Occupied areas - millions of Palestinian people now live in refugee camps in Gaza, the West Bank and around the Middle East. Bringing up propaganda maps to detract from that fact that doesn’t lend any weight to an alternative reality.

FWIW - I am nether ‘Pro-Palestinian’ nor ‘Pro-Israel’ - I am pro-stopping the indiscriminate slaughter of children and thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians and Israeli citizens— And I am against the Netanyahu government as I am against any group that used the tools of terror to further extremist ideologies and political objectives.

Fair enough.
Those propaganda maps come up daily on the net, often from surprisingly 'intelligent' sources. I'd be absolutely astonished if they didn't form part of the thinking of several people on this thread. The situation is desperately complex, on that we agree

 

[Bakero]

 

[WATFORD zero]

Essential background. (Anyone not liking that it's a twitter thread, feel free to fact check & debate)

Fair enough.
Those propaganda maps come up daily on the net, often from surprisingly 'intelligent' sources. I'd be absolutely astonished if they didn't form part of the thinking of several people on this thread. The situation is desperately complex, on that we agree

I'm not sure I understand, the first time I have seen those maps is when you posted them. You ask me to fact check them and then call them 'propaganda'. Can you explain what you mean to someone who isn't following your line of thought ? Thanks

:edit:

I've just read @Zeberdi's explanation of the situation but that still doesn't explain what you were trying to convey by posting these maps