[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[GT49er]

The demo in London was organised by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign. Are they in favour of "wiping Israel off the map"?

I genuinely don't know much about them

You would agree that both sides in this horrible dispute are intractable and intransigent though?

Anyway, I have my view of both sides of the argument - and it isn't favourable to either side! However, I realise that others will view one side or the other differently - and let's face it, most political debates on NSC feature the contractable versus the intransigent, so rather than get involved in a slug-fest I'm out of here. Good luck and good will to all.

 

[Seagull58]

Could you point me to the demos staged by those in favour of wiping Israel off the map? Only demos I've seen have been in favour of a Palestinian state.

In the Hamas Charter:-
Article Eleven:

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up.

There were demonstrators openly supporting Hamas and waving Hamas flags, thereby advocating the elimination of Israel.

 

[CliveWalkerWingWizard]

It may seem that way to you but it is much more likely, if not certain, to be bombing targeted at Hamas rocket launchers and command centres. Indiscrimate bombing, however, is exactly what Hamas is doing firing rockets into Israel.

2300 dead children

 

[Seagull58]

2300 dead children

Yes. As stated many times, Hamas deliberately locates its rocket launchers and command centres in densely populated residential areas.

 

[Zeberdi]

Worthy issues? I don't consider demos staged by those in favour of wiping Israel off the map or obliterating all who support Hamas to be worthy, personally.

- are you reading my posts or just quoting them?

- the overwhelming majority of people on the Palestinian peace marches are not radical Jihadist fundamentalists who support terrorism - the destruction of Israel’ is a radical Jhadist ideology not shared by the majority of Muslims in the UK - in fact, the many would even argue against that interpretation of Islam at all.

- conversely, Israel is not ‘obliterating all who support Hamas’ because by your previous definitions and word choice, that’s every Palestinian in Gaza! - there are innocent people/children being killed in Gaza’ - 2,300 to date - we have no idea how many of the Palestinians support Hamas but they have been are tortured and killed with impunity if they have challenged them or collaborated with Israeli intelligence (although they probably have a few more supporters now than they did a few weeks ago as does Netanyahu.)

PS I’m too tired to continue this with you - you are of course entitled to whatever view you like - but just please stop imputing meaning onto my words when it isn’t there.

PPS - you are not as non-judgmental as you think you are - none of us are - choice of language can betray inherent bias No disagrees with, and have indeed acknowledged, that innocent people are caught in the middle, that the Palestinians have a right to self-determination but that neither Netanyahu’s Government nor Hamas come off any better than each other.

 

[CliveWalkerWingWizard]

Yes. As stated many times, Hamas deliberately locates its rocket launchers and command centres in densely populated residential areas.

So how many children is it legitimate to kill in these precisely targeted attacks?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Yes. As stated many times, Hamas deliberately locates its rocket launchers and command centres in densely populated residential areas.

It's fine for Israel to kill children because of this then ? In international law it's called collective punishment and is illegal.

 

[Krafty]

It may seem that way to you but it is much more likely, if not certain, to be bombing targeted at Hamas rocket launchers and command centres. Indiscrimate bombing, however, is exactly what Hamas is doing firing rockets into Israel.

If this is the case, then why did Israel bomb civilians evacuating to Southern Gaza along the "safe routes"?

Gaza civilians afraid to leave home after bombing of ‘safe routes’

Analysis of aerial photos and social media posts confirms attack on road identified as safe by Israeli army

www.theguardian.com

 

[St Leonards Seagull]

- are you reading my posts or just quoting them?

- the overwhelming majority of people on the Palestinian peace marches are not radical Jihadist fundamentalists who support terrorism - the destruction of Israel’ is a radical Jhadist ideology not shared by the majority of Muslims in the UK - in fact, the many would even argue against that interpretation of Islam at all.

I happened to find quite a large Palestinian support march whilst walking through Glasgow last weekend. The atmosphere was friendly the overriding theme was one of concern for the population of Palestine, for which they were collecting donations (there was also cake). I didn’t hear any anti-semitic chanting or witness any trouble. I accept that this may have not been the case elsewhere, but that was my experience.
I’m not sure it’s helpful the way some of these events are labelled.

 

[Seagull58]

It's fine for Israel to kill children because of this then ? In international law it's called collective punishment and is illegal.

No, i don't think it's fine, at all, as I have categorically stated previously. However,I don't believe they are bombing indiscriminately. I believe they are bombing specific targets and neither the IDF not Hamas are concerned too much about consequent civilian casualties.

 

[Seagull58]

If this is the case, then why did Israel bomb civilians evacuating to Southern Gaza along the "safe routes"?

Gaza civilians afraid to leave home after bombing of ‘safe routes’

Analysis of aerial photos and social media posts confirms attack on road identified as safe by Israeli army

www.theguardian.com

I have seen conflicting reports on this so, as with the hospital bombing, it is not clear exactly what happened. One report said that the nature of the damage indicated that Hamas rockets or IEDs were, at least, possibilities. Another report suggested, but without evidence as far as I know, that Hamas were moving personnel and equipment intermingled with the civilians.
Do you sincerely believe that the IDF deliberately attacked civilians travelling along a designated safe route and that there were no military/Hamas targets there?
That Guardian article does not indicate who were the perpetrators.

 

[Seagull58]

So how many children is it legitimate to kill in these precisely targeted attacks?

Where did I say that any of these actions are legitimate? I didn't. I don't believe the IDF is bombing indiscriminately but I do believe that neither the IDF nor Hamas are too bothered about consequent civilian casualties. By locating their infrastructure in densely populated civilian areas Hamas is basically saying to the IDF "go on, we dare you". As we have seen on numerous occasions, the IDF dares and will respond accordingly.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

It may seem that way to you but it is much more likely, if not certain, to be bombing targeted at Hamas rocket launchers and command centres. Indiscrimate bombing, however, is exactly what Hamas is doing firing rockets into Israel.

South Gaza bombing exactly where the Israeli's are saying for the population to go to. Israel yet again in conflict with the UN, not allowing visas.

BBC interviewing a settler in the hills of the West Bank tells you all you need to know about the far right wing Israeli's.

Peace is a long way away, when you have the West supporting one side, allowing them to do as they please and the other side run by non-state terrorists.

 

[Seagull58]

South Gaza bombing exactly where the Israeli's are saying for the population to go to. Israel yet again in conflict with the UN, not allowing visas.

BBC interviewing a settler in the hills of the West Bank tells you all you need to know about the far right wing Israeli's.

Peace is a long way away, when you have the West supporting one side, allowing them to do as they please and the other side run by non-state terrorists.

Do you think that the IDF is bombing South Gaza because many of the civilians in North Gaza have gone there to escape the imminent ground invasion in the North and they want to kill them, or do you think it is bombing South Gaza because there are Hamas equipment, personnel and command structures there, some of which will have been relocated from the North to avoid the ground offensive and targeted bombings?
There are ultra-orthodox jews in Israel and in the settlements who desire and advocate for a Greater Israel. It's a huge problem.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Do you think that the IDF is bombing South Gaza because many of the civilians in North Gaza have gone there to escape the imminent ground invasion in the North and they want to kill them, or do you think it is bombing South Gaza because there are Hamas equipment, personnel and command structures there, some of which will have been relocated from the North to avoid the ground offensive and targeted bombings?
There are ultra-orthodox jews in Israel and in the settlements who desire and advocate for a Greater Israel. It's a huge problem.

IDF are bombing civilians like they have for decades they don't give a shit about Palestinian lives, frankly. But it goes both ways.

Your second point amounts to those in government in Israel or the illegal settlements wouldn't be there!

 

[wellquickwoody]

N

In the Hamas Charter:-
Article Eleven:

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up.

There were demonstrators openly supporting Hamas and waving Hamas flags, thereby advocating the elimination of Israel.

No, you are reading what YOU want to read into that statement. It makes no mention of Israel. But you know that anyway.

 

[Zeberdi]

I happened to find quite a large Palestinian support march whilst walking through Glasgow last weekend. The atmosphere was friendly the overriding theme was one of concern for the population of Palestine, for which they were collecting donations (there was also cake). I didn’t hear any anti-semitic chanting or witness any trouble. I accept that this may have not been the case elsewhere, but that was my experience.
I’m not sure it’s helpful the way some of these events are labelled.

Thanks for the feedback @St Leonards Seagull - you are the third first eye witness account I’ve heard, much to the same effect - @borat attended the London one on Friday and said the same, as did my Niece.

I think perhaps some of the stereotyping we are seeing on social media and the frankly Islamophobic language being used when describing the demonstrators is because the fast cycle news media will always focus on the story - preferably the shortest version which as far as the demos go, that’s not the Palestinian cause itself but the very few incidents of racial incitement or support for Terror - with notices or banners that have been captured by police on video as the make their arrests - amongst the many many thousands who march peacefully without breaking the law and with no connection to terrorism, they are being inadvertently/overtly maligned and their cause undermined - It’s almost as if the public have a thirst for it - but watching 30 minute news cycles is where perhaps many people get their information from (rather than from reading a broad range of background source material) upon which they form their judgements about the conflict and its protagonists…Of course if all they are seeing in relation to news reports about the demonstrations are focussed on extremist behaviour, then hardly surprising there is an antagonism towards the Palestinian marches and think they are all ‘Hamas’ terrorists. Not all football fans are hooligans and not all hooligans are football fans - In my experience over the years of demonstrating, there are agent provocateurs in every large demo who’s sole objective is to silence protest by getting the protest banned as well as the minority who hold extremists views.

 

[Seagull58]

N

No, you are reading what YOU want to read into that statement. It makes no mention of Israel. But you know that anyway.

What is the land of Palestine? You are trying not to see it but it is there. They want all the land of Palestine to be an Islamic Calliphate. This is not a secret. It is openly stated by Hamas.
In its 1988 charter, Hamas said it sought to destroy the state of Israel and create an Islamic society in historic Palestine.
The 2017 charter accepted for the first time the idea of a Palestinian state within the borders that existed before 1967 and rejects recognition of Israel which it terms as the "Zionist enemy".[2] It advocates such a state as transitional but also advocates "liberation of all of Palestine".
But you know that anyway.

Hamas Charter - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Wokeworrier]

Comparing any government's actions to those of other governments (past or present) is not anti-Semitic nor racist. I could easily compare the current Israeli government with the Russian government. Johnson's UK government with Trump's USA government. SOME of the actions of the current Israeli government ( a far right government ) against Palestinians do echo those of the Nazi government ( a far right government ) against the Jews. There are similarities.

I'm also VERY careful to say Israeli government not Jewish government. Not once will you see me comparing religions ( IMHO every religion is idiotic but that's another debate ) - Israel for example is made up of Jews, Christians, Muslims and no doubt a number of other religions. So how is me comparing the Israeli government, who I've no doubt these other religions also voted for, anti-Semitic ? Maybe you need to do a flounce like your Dad did. And, just in case one the mods pulls me up for playing the man rather than the ball in that last statement - I don't appreciate being called anti-Semitic when I'm anything but.

Yes, you could easily make numerous, less offensive comparisons but you continually use the Nazi comparison, why?

The International Holocaust Alliance disagrees with you as do the 43 UN member countries including the UK who have all adopted or endorsed their working definition of antisemitism including drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

I would hope at least some of the Mods are less interested in your trolling and more concerned about more serious ramifications for you and this site.

Harley Street doctor compares Israel to Nazis as she posts picture of swastika next to state flag

Cosmetics procedures specialist reported to police over online comments following bombing of Gaza in response to Hamas massacre

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[nicko31]

South Gaza bombing exactly where the Israeli's are saying for the population to go to. Israel yet again in conflict with the UN, not allowing visas.

BBC interviewing a settler in the hills of the West Bank tells you all you need to know about the far right wing Israeli's.

Peace is a long way away, when you have the West supporting one side, allowing them to do as they please and the other side run by non-state terrorists.

The Israelis are blinded right now by their grief which is understandable. Hamas will be greatly weakened for sure, but Gaza will be left in an even more desperate state than before and from on new generation of terrorists will be born.

As for turning away the UN, do they honestly think this will help bolster International support?