a million protesting about Iraq war did not influence Blair
[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel
- Thread starter Greenbag50
- Start date
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A million protesting about nuclear weapons did not influence Thatcher (I went on that march and learned first hand about how amazing it feels to go on a massive march of solidarity, and how pointless it all is when the other 60 odd million members of society and the government simply ignore it).
Agree with this. Hoping the two sides would come to this obvious conclusion between themselves has turned out to be wishful thinking.
Unfortunately, we now have Israel ejecting toys from their pram because they don't like the terminology used by the UN. I appreciate it is an emotive issue but to solve it they need to act like grown-ups.
Greenbag50
Well-known member
- Jun 1, 2016
- 387
- Thread starter
- #2,224
Pretty crass remark. We’ve already been bombed
Bombs (of the Islamic suicide nature) have been detonated in London and Manchester in recent years, killing scores of innocent people.
I repeat, I don’t want to see any bombing on the streets of our country again.
The glorification of 1400 Jews being slaughtered and blatant acts of anti-semiticsm (racist views to you and me) are not welcome on our streets.
Easy 10
Brain dead MUG SHEEP
Celtic fans will be displaying pro-Palestian banners at tonights game v Atletico https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-67215217
Stay classy
GT49er
Well-known member
Anti-apartheid. Marching against the South African rugby tour of England caused the authorities to call off the South African cricket tour which was due to follow, leading to the sporting isolation of SA and ultimately the end of apartheid. Only played a very small part, obviously, but proud of it.
Edit: sorry - that was 50 years ago. Does it count?
Wokeworrier
Active member
The International Holocaust Rememberance alliance wouldn't like that statement as it meets their definition of antisemitism
- Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
What is antisemitism?
With the IHRA working definition of antisemitism, the IHRA built international consensus around an answer to the question, what does antisemitism mean?
www.holocaustremembrance.com
As do many of your previous statements ...
Criticising Israel and its actions in Gaza is entirely legitimate but I don't see the need to continually link to the Nazis unless you are deliberately trying to provoke cause offence.
It can be argued that those that make the comparison between the Jewish state and the Nazis and Hitler – who perpetrated the greatest and largest act of antisemitism in world history – have not chosen this comparison innocently or dispassionately. It is a charge that is purposefully directed at Jews in an effort to associate the victims of Nazi crimes with the Nazi perpetrators and serves to diminish the significance and uniqueness of the Holocaust.
To make such a comparison is antisemitic and constitutes blatant hostility toward Jews, Jewish history and the legitimacy of the Jewish State of Israel.
SeagullinExile
Well-known member
Isreali intelligence is more than capable of taking out the Hamas leadership using clandestine operations. For example, they took out the perpetrators/planners of Munich one by one for years after the attacks.
It seems to me, the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza is being driven by nothing more than revenge, and gives them an excuse for yet more land grabs/ethnic cleansing.
But we as a country are and have always been involved. These maps might give you a clue.
Then there's our government's unstinting support from Balfour to the present day and the thriving arms trade between the 2 nations. Not to mention the likes of JCB, a quintessentially British firm, being named as complicit in the construction of illegal settlements and the destruction of Palestinian homes.
But yeah, nothing to do with us so we should all roll our eyes and turn over the channel.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,977
Direct action, eg demonstrating or waving banners, leafleting etc does inform people of the issues - I did it myself for years - but it also gives otherwise disenfranchised people a feeling they are being heard - that’s a powerful feeling even if it’s just an illusory form of power - when demonstrations get a large diversity of attendance - families, elderly, students, clergy, etc etc - they actually do provide a snap shot of public opinion too whether people agree with the result or not - and as regards influencing policy, no sane freely government is going to stay in power for very long if they pursue policies that caused deep civil unrest so there is influence. Surely we helped save our Club and bring attention to our need by all the demonstrations and mobilising other forms of direct action?
20 years on - Fans United: When football came together to help save Brighton & Hove Albion - The League Paper
Get the latest news and opinion on the EFL Championship, League One and League Two with the specialist coverage of The Football League Paper – on sale every Sunday in the UK.
www.theleaguepaper.com
“Protest is how we protect each other, safeguard our rights, and ensure we can stand up against oppression and injustice.” and rights to protest have already been severely eroded over the past few decades without us relinquishing more out of ignorance or apathy
We must not let the government use the situation in Israel and Gaza to erode our civil liberties - Liberty
The Government's response to protests relating to Israel and Palestine is an attack on our fundamental right to stand up for what we believe in
www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk
That’s a big jump from what I was saying and frankly the antithesis of everything I am saying here as is the hyperbolic imagery being conflated with what I said - ’Jihad’ has several connotations and meanings in Islam btw - in any area of which I was unfamiliar, II think I would want to know who was calling it out and what they meant by it before accusing them of supporting Hamas or being a terrorist themself.
Again, this isn’t factually true - you have you own interpretation based on feelings - but objectively ’from the river to the sea’ does not have an agreed understanding of its use or context - calling me a pedant for pointing that not only is misjudged but a cheap shot across the bow - facts matter as do words and their interpretation. The song/chant as I said in a previous post on this thread, was used by Palestinians calling for a homeland years before Israel was even created - so the words in themselves do not advocate the destruction of Isreal - it cant - it pre-dates Israel. -
Opinion | ‘From The River To The Sea’ Doesn’t Mean What You Think It Means
A 2018 piece by a Palestinian on what the phrase, which features prominently in anti-Israel protests, means to the activists who use it
forward.com
GT49er
Well-known member
Protests against the owners of Brighton was justified - a case of good versus bad. And because the cause was just, and unified 92 normally warring tribes, it was actually successful.Direct action, eg demonstrating or waving banners, leafleting etc does inform people of the issues - I did it myself for years - but it also gives otherwise disenfranchised people a feeling they are being heard - that’s a powerful feeling even if it’s just an illusory form of power - when demonstrations get a large diversity of attendance - families, elderly, students, clergy, etc etc - they actually do provide a snap shot of public opinion too whether people agree with the result or not - and as regards influencing policy, no sane freely government is going to stay in power for very long if they pursue policies that caused deep civil unrest so there is influence. Surely we helped save our Club and bring attention to our need by all the demonstrations and mobilising other forms of direct action?
20 years on - Fans United: When football came together to help save Brighton & Hove Albion - The League Paper
Get the latest news and opinion on the EFL Championship, League One and League Two with the specialist coverage of The Football League Paper – on sale every Sunday in the UK.
“Protest is how we protect each other, safeguard our rights, and ensure we can stand up against oppression and injustice.” and rights to protest have already been severely eroded over the past few decades without us relinquishing more out of ignorance or apathy
We must not let the government use the situation in Israel and Gaza to erode our civil liberties - Liberty
The Government's response to protests relating to Israel and Palestine is an attack on our fundamental right to stand up for what we believe in
That’s a big jump from what I was saying and frankly the antithesis of everything I am saying here as is the hyperbolic imagery being conflated with what I said - ’Jihad’ has several connotations and meanings in Islam btw - in any area of which I was unfamiliar, II think I would want to know who was calling it out and what they meant by it before accusing them of supporting Hamas or being a terrorist themself.
Again, this isn’t factually true - you have you own interpretation based on feelings - but objectively ’from the river to the sea’ does not have an agreed understanding of its use or context - calling me a pedant for pointing that not only is misjudged but a cheap shot across the bow - facts matter as do words and their interpretation. The song/chant as I said in a previous post on this thread, was used by Palestinians calling for a homeland years before Israel was even created - so the words in themselves do not advocate the destruction of Isreal - it cant - it pre-dates Israel. -
the majority of Palestinians marching our streets today, they are not singing it because they support terrorists or want to see the destruction of Israel but because it is the song of their forefathers before living under oppression a time when they were free - it encapsulates the spirit of the Palestinian cause. Hamas use it but that’s no reason to suggest because it’s been called for by protestors there have been 300,000 terrorists walking through the streets of London in recent days.Opinion | ‘From The River To The Sea’ Doesn’t Mean What You Think It Means
A 2018 piece by a Palestinian on what the phrase, which features prominently in anti-Israel protests, means to the activists who use it
To compare it to the current protests - one lot of intransigent hate-fuelled protesters prostating against another mob of intransigent hate-fruelled people - is disingenuoius to say the least. Palestinians versus Israelis is not a case of good versus bad. Neither side is the 'good' side; both have done, and are doing, evil.
Comparing any government's actions to those of other governments (past or present) is not anti-Semitic nor racist. I could easily compare the current Israeli government with the Russian government. Johnson's UK government with Trump's USA government. SOME of the actions of the current Israeli government ( a far right government ) against Palestinians do echo those of the Nazi government ( a far right government ) against the Jews. There are similarities.The International Holocaust Rememberance alliance wouldn't like that statement as it meets their definition of antisemitism
- Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
What is antisemitism?
With the IHRA working definition of antisemitism, the IHRA built international consensus around an answer to the question, what does antisemitism mean?
As do many of your previous statements ...
Criticising Israel and its actions in Gaza is entirely legitimate but I don't see the need to continually link to the Nazis unless you are deliberately trying to provoke cause offence.
It can be argued that those that make the comparison between the Jewish state and the Nazis and Hitler – who perpetrated the greatest and largest act of antisemitism in world history – have not chosen this comparison innocently or dispassionately. It is a charge that is purposefully directed at Jews in an effort to associate the victims of Nazi crimes with the Nazi perpetrators and serves to diminish the significance and uniqueness of the Holocaust.
To make such a comparison is antisemitic and constitutes blatant hostility toward Jews, Jewish history and the legitimacy of the Jewish State of Israel.
I'm also VERY careful to say Israeli government not Jewish government. Not once will you see me comparing religions ( IMHO every religion is idiotic but that's another debate ) - Israel for example is made up of Jews, Christians, Muslims and no doubt a number of other religions. So how is me comparing the Israeli government, who I've no doubt these other religions also voted for, anti-Semitic ? Maybe you need to do a flounce like your Dad did. And, just in case one the mods pulls me up for playing the man rather than the ball in that last statement - I don't appreciate being called anti-Semitic when I'm anything but.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,977
It would be if the current protests had been characterised by me as being ‘one lot of intransigent hate-filled protesters protesting against another intransigent hate fuelled people” but they had not.
These are your words not mine - I don’t characterise either the Jewish vigils or the Palestinian Peace marches the way you do - I characterise them as peaceful non-violent legitimate protest so have no qualms in affording them the same respect as any other peaceful demonstration .
If we are going down the pothole-filled road of making subjective value judgments of what issues are worthy and which are not, then I would say demonstrations to end terror, war, poverty, Occupation, starvation, human rights abuses, blockades and improving the lives of 4 million Palestinians and 9 million Israelis are more important than demonstrating for a football club (especially if it’s Palace
) - but that’s just me.
I haven't read the thread, but generally on NSC I see a lot of empathy for Palestinians and distain at the occupation.
I just don't get how Israel are justifying the occupation. I remember an excuse from years ago that holding some of the territories gave them a better defence against attacks from their neighbours, but that shouldn't require their citizens moving there.
I'd like Israel to leave the occupied territories, and I'd like Israel's neighbours to agree that Israel has a right to exist. And I'd like Jodie Comer.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 4,977
Exactly - well put - I pretty much said as much at the beginning of all this debate (several times !
) - when accused of the same thing - criticising the far-right polices of a government who commits war crimes, human rights abuses and illegally oppresses a whole population of ethnic minority people, is not only not-anti-semitic it is a duty - anyone who misappropriates anti-semitism to make false claims to silence free speech, especially when it is to hold governments for abuse of power, then they should be ashamed imo.
GT49er
Well-known member
Worthy issues? I don't consider demos staged by those in favour of wiping Israel off the map or obliterating all who support Hamas to be worthy, personally.It would be if the current protests had been characterised by me as being ‘one lot of intransigent hate-filled protesters protesting against another intransigent hate fuelled people” but they had not.
These are your words not mine - I don’t characterise either the Jewish vigils or the Palestinian Peace marches the way you do - I characterise them as peaceful non-violent legitimate protest so have no qualms in affording them the same respect as any other peaceful demonstration .
If we are going down the pothole-filled road of making subjective value judgments of what issues are worthy and which are not, then I would say demonstrations to end terror, war, poverty, Occupation, starvation, human rights abuses, blockades and improving the lives of 4 million Palestinians and 9 million Israelis are more important than demonstrating for a football club (especially if it’s Palace
Seagull58
In the Algarve
That's a very different situation. The Munich planners/perpetrators comprised no more than a dozen or so people in total who were tracked down in various, widely separated countries and killed over a period of 11 years or more. The global leadership of Hamas is in Qatar. The local leadership are embedded in the civilian population in Gaza.
The demo in London was organised by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign. Are they in favour of "wiping Israel off the map"?
I genuinely don't know much about them
Seagull58
In the Algarve
It may seem that way to you but it is much more likely, if not certain, to be bombing targeted at Hamas rocket launchers and command centres. Indiscrimate bombing, however, is exactly what Hamas is doing firing rockets into Israel.
Could you point me to the demos staged by those in favour of wiping Israel off the map? Only demos I've seen have been in favour of a Palestinian state.