[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Seagull58]

I think everyone agrees that decapitation with a garden hoe is more shocking than killing some with a bomb. It's more visceral. Perhaps we've become desensitised to airstrikes. The outcome is the same though.

As has been said countless times: the Hamas attacks were awful but they did not happen a vacuum. We can't ignore the historical context.

What you call a "military operation" has thus far resulted in ~2500 dead children in a couple of weeks. Collateral damage, I suppose. At what stage would the asymmetric death toll become too much in your eyes? Not to mention the destruction of homes, schools and businesses.

Lastly, do you have hope that the IDF will eradicate Hamas? What do you envision happening next? The Palestinians peacefully accepting their fate?

At no time have I said I condone, support or justify the Israeli actions. I have offered a description/explanation of what they are compared to the Hamas actions.
As to what I hope for; a 2 state solution with lasting peace. Tragically, there are Arabs whose objective is the destruction of Israel and there are ultra-orthodox jews whose objective is an enlarged Israeli State.

 

[Bakero]

If Hamas has rocket launchers and command centres in the south (I don't know if they do) then they will also be targeted.

Any idea why they've bombed the "safe zones"? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...inians-trapped-in-gaza-find-danger-everywhere. And the convoy of evacuees on designated "safe routes"? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...id-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes

 

[Westdene Seagull]

If Hamas has rocket launchers and command centres in the south (I don't know if they do) then they will also be targeted.

So just to clarify here - Israel has told citizens to move from North Gaza to South Gaza - 1.1m of them. South Gaza doesn't have either the space or the resources to accommodate these extra people but I guess that is tough luck. Then Israel decides to bomb these civilians that they ordered to move. You support this ? Certain people won't like this statement but it has echoes of the 1930s and certain ghettos which you'd think, of all countries, Israel might understand.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

If Hamas has rocket launchers and command centres in the south (I don't know if they do) then they will also be targeted.

Which begs the question why were they all sent there when they could have been bombed at home?
The only analogy I can come up with for all this is the police shooting a crowd of people dead because they think one of them might be a murderer.

 

[Seagull58]

Unfortunately, they seem to hold major sway and are backed by their nutjob counterparts in the States.

Indeed, the christofascist white supremacists in the US are also involved to some extent.

 

[Seagull58]

Any idea why they've bombed the "safe zones"? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...inians-trapped-in-gaza-find-danger-everywhere. And the convoy of evacuees on designated "safe routes"? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...id-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes

No, I don't know why.
Edit: Maybe Hamas relocated some of their capabilities into the South after the Israelis started preparing the ground invasion in the North?

 

[GT49er]

All the time our government and opposition give their unwavering support to any and all Israeli military action, I see the point in demonstrations.

Support for Israel's right to defend itself is not the same as 'unwavering support' for slaughtering as many Palestinians in Gaza as possible - which I have seen no evidence of anyone supporting. Something - and I'm sure it's not military resistance by Hamas - has stopped, or at least delayed - Israel's initial threat of a ground invasion. Lord knows the air strikes and sanctions are terrible enough, but the fact remains that Israel hasn't carried out all of its original threats - as well as supporting the right to defend, no doubt Biden and Sunak also will have 'had a word'.
I see little point in the demonstrations except to spread hate and anger.

 

[Seagull58]

So just to clarify here - Israel has told citizens to move from North Gaza to South Gaza - 1.1m of them. South Gaza doesn't have either the space or the resources to accommodate these extra people but I guess that is tough luck. Then Israel decides to bomb these civilians that they ordered to move. You support this ? Certain people won't like this statement but it has echoes of the 1930s and certain ghettos which you'd think, of all countries, Israel might understand.

Once again for those who have not read my recent posts, No I don't condone or support the Israeli actions or the Hamas actions. I am offering a perspective on the situation.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I wonder if they will allow the ‘Israeli’ one that was not allowed to go ahead last weekend because of the pro ‘Palestinian’ one

The news reports I read suggest that pro Israel events did go ahead as planned.

 

[Seagull58]

Which begs the question why were they all sent there when they could have been bombed at home?
The only analogy I can come up with for all this is the police shooting a crowd of people dead because they think one of them might be a murderer.

Do you think Hamas might have moved some of their capabilities and infrastructure into the South once Israel issued their ultimatum and started preparing the ground invasion in the North? Hamas has a strategy of infiltrating their personnel and infrastructure within heavily populated residential areas so they have human shields.

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

What part of my "opinion" in the post you quoted above is not factual? I did not express an opinion.

Errrr ok.
I am not sure where to begin with that.

I have not said it is justified but stated what is happening and why.

Errrr ok.
I did not accuse you of justifying anything, just that I disagree that they are specifically targeting Hamas, I think and feel they are indiscriminately flattening whole areas, and will then take over those areas, never allowing the previous peoples to return, basically using this whole horrible situation as an opportunity to land grab, they may use the excuse of occupation as defence, but we know what it will be.

That is my opinion, nothing more.
I do not wish to fall out with anyone over this, and I am open to other ideas and outcomes, if I am looking at it wrong.
To me Israel's response is excessive.

have a pleasant afternoon.

 

[Bozza]

Do you think Hamas might have moved some of their capabilities and infrastructure into the South once Israel issued their ultimatum and started preparing the ground invasion in the North? Hamas has a strategy of infiltrating their personnel and infrastructure within heavily populated residential areas so they have human shields.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, with over 36,000 people per square mile.

By comparison, New York has 29,000, London 14,500 and Brighton 8,600.

The population in Gaza is essentially trapped, and unable to go anywhere else.

With such a densely populated area, it is impossible to target Hamas without inflicting huge loss of life in the civilian population.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

Do you think Hamas might have moved some of their capabilities and infrastructure into the South once Israel issued their ultimatum and started preparing the ground invasion in the North? Hamas has a strategy of infiltrating their personnel and infrastructure within heavily populated residential areas so they have human shields.

Yes, I do, but that’s no reason to kill innocent people and kids.
In fact it’s now been proven that their “shields” don’t work, so we should probably stop referring to them as such.

 

[Seagull58]

Errrr ok.
I am not sure where to begin with that.

Errrr ok.
I did not accuse you of justifying anything, just that I disagree that they are specifically targeting Hamas, I think and feel they are indiscriminately flattening whole areas, and will then take over those areas, never allowing the previous peoples to return, basically using this whole horrible situation as an opportunity to land grab, they may use the excuse of occupation as defence, but we know what it will be.

That is my opinion, nothing more.
I do not wish to fall out with anyone over this, and I am open to other ideas and outcomes, if I am looking at it wrong.
To me Israel's response is excessive.

have a pleasant afternoon.

We will find out in due course what their objective really is. IMO (yes, I'm expressing an opinion now), there is a faction within Israel that wants to eradicate Hamas and there is another faction (the ultra-orthodox) that wants a greatly expanded territory for the Jewish State.

 

[Seagull58]

Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, with over 36,000 people per square mile.

By comparison, New York has 29,000, London 14,500 and Brighton 8,600.

The population in Gaza is essentially trapped, and unable to go anywhere else.

With such a densely populated area, it is impossible to target Hamas without inflicting huge loss of life in the civilian population.

Yes, Hamas is well aware of this.

 

[Bozza]

Yes, Hamas is well aware of this.

And Israel too?

 

[Seagull58]

Yes, I do, but that’s no reason to kill innocent people and kids.
In fact it’s now been proven that their “shields” don’t work, so we should probably stop referring to them as such.

How would you propose the IDF stop Hamas firing hundreds of rockets a day from Gaza?

 

[Seagull58]

And Israel too?

Of course. How do you propose Israel stops Hamas firing rockets from Gaza?

 

[LamieRobertson]

T

The news reports I read suggest that pro Israel events did go ahead as planned.

the one I read confirmed cancellation of a planned ‘vigil’ in London …unless you are referring to say the one in Manchester the following day

 

[dejavuatbtn]

How would you propose the IDF stop Hamas firing hundreds of rockets a day from Gaza?

Well, their current approach appears to be by wiping out a whole population. Yeah, that’ll work.