[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[crodonilson]

Apologies if fixtures but some of the terrorists actions in Israel that caused this flare up are absolutely sickening. Don't read if you are easily distressed, wouldn't like to have been a journalist viewing the footage shown.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67198270

 

[nicko31]

Well, apparently supporting Hamas in London is no big deal, I guess anything can be fashionable.

It can, it wasn't long ago the Israeli government were supporting them and help build them up

 

[Is it PotG?]

Apologies if fixtures but some of the terrorists actions in Israel that caused this flare up are absolutely sickening. Don't read if you are easily distressed, wouldn't like to have been a journalist viewing the footage shown.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67198270

That is truly awful. Horrendous and, as you say, sickening.

 

[Krafty]

It can, it wasn't long ago the Israeli government were supporting them and help build them up

I don't tolerate the support of Hamas, a terrorist organisation, nor would I call it "fashionable".

 

[nicko31]

I don't tolerate the support of Hamas, a terrorist organisation, nor would I call it "fashionable".

Nor do I, but the Israeli government were happy to support them adopting a divide and rule strategy

 

[Seagull58]

It can, it wasn't long ago the Israeli government were supporting them and help build them up

50 years ago. Not exactly recent.

Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It

Hamas wants to destroy Israel, right? But as Mehdi Hasan shows in a new video on blowback, Israeli officials admit they helped start the group.

theintercept.com

 

[dangull]

The absolute grace of hostage Yocheved Lifschitz, 85, a peace activist, turning back at the moment of her release and shaking hands with one of her heavily-armed captors is a stunningly beautiful thing

To be fair, she also said she was treated very well by her captors. Considering there has now been more casulties on the Palestine side, I did fear the hostages might not end up well. Hopefully for the rest as well and some form of mediation before a full scale invasion of Gaza.

 

[Bakero]

That is truly awful. Horrendous and, as you say, sickening.

It really is and the trauma for those involved just doesn't bear thinking about.

I do take issue with the reasoning for its release though:

"We see that some of the channels are trying to compare what Israel is doing and what those vile terrorists are doing," General Edelstein said.

"I cannot understand anyone who compares," he said. "And after what we have shared with you, you should know it."

We get it. The world understands that innocent Israelis were brutally murdered and their killers are rightly condemned.

However, almost 6000 Palestinians have since been killed. Mostly civilians and many children. Defend yourself by all means but don't expect the world to see retributive slaughter as justified nor as an effective means to bring peace to the region.

 

[Bakero]

50 years ago. Not exactly recent.

Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It

Hamas wants to destroy Israel, right? But as Mehdi Hasan shows in a new video on blowback, Israeli officials admit they helped start the group.

theintercept.com

Netanyahu has consistently seen Hamas as a useful counterweight to the PA. He doesn't want a 2-state solution so has chosen to empower them rather than allow less extreme groups to prosper.

The symbiotic relationship between Netanyahu and Hamas

With Hamas in power in Gaza, coupled with a deliberately emaciated PA in the West Bank, Netanyahu could claim there was no Palestinian partner for negotiation.

thehill.com

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces - The Times of Israel

The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[The Clamp]

The absolute grace of hostage Yocheved Lifschitz, 85, a peace activist, turning back at the moment of her release and shaking hands with one of her heavily-armed captors is a stunningly beautiful thing

Hmm.
I’m not sure I agree it’s beautiful. Not sure what to make of it, to be honest. A little disrespectful to the people who were murdered.

 

[Seagull58]

It really is and the trauma for those involved just doesn't bear thinking about.

I do take issue with the reasoning for its release though:

"We see that some of the channels are trying to compare what Israel is doing and what those vile terrorists are doing," General Edelstein said.

"I cannot understand anyone who compares," he said. "And after what we have shared with you, you should know it."

We get it. The world understands that innocent Israelis were brutally murdered and their killers are rightly condemned.

However, almost 6000 Palestinians have since been killed. Mostly civilians and many children. Defend yourself by all means but don't expect the world to see retributive slaughter as justified nor as an effective means to bring peace to the region.

I'm sure the IDF will say that Palestinians are collateral damage because Hamas have deliberately located their command centres, rocket launchers and tunnel network in the midst of residential areas so they have human shields. That's why Israel told the civilians to evacuate to the South. It may not be justified or an effective means to bring peace but is is not the bloodthirsty, targeted torture, rape and murder of innocents that Hamas indulged in.

 

[carlzeiss]

That is truly awful. Horrendous and, as you say, sickening.

That is truly awful. Horrendous and, as you say, sickening.

Could only read snippets of what was reported to have been done without vomiting , can't though escape from knowing though that these acts do have support though out the western world and have also duped untold numbers of useful idiots to tag along .

 

[nicko31]

Netanyahu has consistently seen Hamas as a useful counterweight to the PA. He doesn't want a 2-state solution so has chosen to empower them rather than allow less extreme groups to prosper.

The symbiotic relationship between Netanyahu and Hamas

With Hamas in power in Gaza, coupled with a deliberately emaciated PA in the West Bank, Netanyahu could claim there was no Palestinian partner for negotiation.

thehill.com

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it's blown up in our faces - The Times of Israel

The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from

www.timesofisrael.com

Enabling a two state solution was never going to be compatible with the desire for more illegal settlements.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I said at the time politics should be kept out of sport as you end up in an awkward position , if you are bored enough you can go back and find it.

But what is 'politics'? Support for Israel is politics (noting that there is a great deal of support in the UK for the Palestinian people). Support for Ukraine is politics (even though the only people supporting Russia are complete sorts like Trump and Farrage). Support for 'Kick it out' is politics because lots of football supporters disagree with it on principle (including all the racists). Support for poppy day is arguably not politics since these days it remembers all the dead, not just ours.

No, my feeling is that it would have been fine to show some support for Israel, given that they were under attack, were it not for the fact this is an ongoing conflict with brutality on both sides. Yes, I think that on average, over the years, the Palestinians have been arguably more brutal and indiscriminate, but it is a high scoring match and the final whistle appear to be still in the referee's pocket.

So on balance it seems fine to me to support Ukraine, kick it out (which includes the knee taking) and poppy day, but not give a unilateral signal to one state in the Israel/Hamas conflict. That would seem to to be giving a green light to Bibi. A bit like coming out in favour of the protestant or catholic members of the public during 'the troubles' by flying the (protestant) Ulster or (Catholic) republican flag. It is noteworthy that progress in resolving the terrorism in Northern Ireland began only when we (the British government) stopped taking sides.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm sure the IDF will say that Palestinians are collateral damage because Hamas have deliberately located their command centres, rocket launchers and tunnel network in the midst of residential areas so they have human shields. That's why Israel told the civilians to evacuate to the South. It may not be justified or an effective means to bring peace but is is not the bloodthirsty, targeted torture, rape and murder of innocents that Hamas indulged in.

7-6. Ref's whistle firmly still in pocket.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

50 years ago. Not exactly recent.

Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It

Hamas wants to destroy Israel, right? But as Mehdi Hasan shows in a new video on blowback, Israeli officials admit they helped start the group.

theintercept.com

Guns for the Afghan rebels.

The west armed the mad Islamist Taliban who overthrew Najibullah.

Hindsight is not an effective answer to the law of unintended consequences. But.....facts are facts.

My father was brutally killed by the Taliban. The US ignored his pleas for help | Muska Najibullah

I am the daughter of a former Afghan president. I am sharing my story for the first time because I see history repeating itself

www.theguardian.com

 

[WATFORD zero]

50 years ago. Not exactly recent.

Blowback: How Israel Went From Helping Create Hamas to Bombing It

Hamas wants to destroy Israel, right? But as Mehdi Hasan shows in a new video on blowback, Israeli officials admit they helped start the group.

theintercept.com

And this current conflict is ?

 

[aolstudios]

The absolute grace of hostage Yocheved Lifschitz, 85, a peace activist, turning back at the moment of her release and shaking hands with one of her heavily-armed captors is a stunningly beautiful thing

Tbf, they're still holding her husband

 

[aolstudios]

To be fair, she also said she was treated very well by her captors. Considering there has now been more casulties on the Palestine side, I did fear the hostages might not end up well. Hopefully for the rest as well and some form of mediation before a full scale invasion of Gaza.

"treated very well", & beaten all over her body

 

[Bakero]

I'm sure the IDF will say that Palestinians are collateral damage because Hamas have deliberately located their command centres, rocket launchers and tunnel network in the midst of residential areas so they have human shields. That's why Israel told the civilians to evacuate to the South. It may not be justified or an effective means to bring peace but is is not the bloodthirsty, targeted torture, rape and murder of innocents that Hamas indulged in.

That's exactly what the IDF would say. However, as you suggest, it's not justified or effective but the other side did worse so hey ho, off you go?

I'm sorry but I don't understand your point.

From a Israeli standpoint, I understand the desire for revenge. It's a normal human reaction. Politicians need to act rationally though and not follow their base desires. The outside world, free from the "tribalism of pain", certainly need to think critically and look for solutions not justify vengeance.