[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Zeberdi]

Why wasn’t there a two state solution prior to the formation of Hamas in 1987?

Before Hamas there was the PLO (among others), cutting the genitals off athletes prior to murdering them

That kind of answer is a little counterproductive!

Before Hamas had any kind of power, the PLO came to the peace table under Yassa Arafat and renounced terrorism - under the Oslo Peace Accords, it formed the Palestinian Administrative Authority (consisting of two political parties, Hamas + Fatah) in the Occupied Territories (Gaza, parts of the Golan Heights and the West Bank including East Jerusalem whose ruling power was propped up by US economic and security and more importantly recognised Israel’s right to exist in peace. The PA was seen by jihadists paramilitary wing of Hamas as selling out, Hamas fought Fatah, the PA split and Hamas conducted a bloody takeover in Gaza, killing many of it’s citizens it became increasingly militarised and radicalised -

In November 1995, Yitzsak Rabin was assassinated by Yigal Amir, an Israeli who opposed the Oslo Accords on religious grounds. Rabin’s murder was followed by a string of terrorist attacks by Hamas, which undermined support for the Labor Party in Israel’s May 1996 elections. New Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu hailed from the Likud Party, which had historically opposed Palestinian statehood and withdrawal from the occupied territories.

PA Fatah, continues to rule the West Bank and under it’s leader, Abbas, who work closely with Israel to stifle resistant uprising and is no friend of Hamas.

(Prior to the Peace Accords, it was Israel‘s far right, her continuing violation of human rights, as well as Palestinian extremists that had been repeatedly resistant to Peace and a two state solution.)

https://www.un.org/unispal/history/#:~:text=In%201947%2C%20the%20UK%20turned,Read%20more.&text=After%20looking%20at%20alternatives%2C%20the,(II)%20of%201947).

 

[Justice]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67108364

Targetting a designated evacuation route is surely a War Crime. I can't imagine the hatred that drives people to act like this. Truly shocking.

Grant Shapps will find a way of justifying that along with Israel’s use of phosphorus weapons, horrible irk of a man.

 

[Questions]

This is all Moses fault.

 

[fly high]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67108364

Targetting a designated evacuation route is surely a War Crime. I can't imagine the hatred that drives people to act like this. Truly shocking.

100% a war crime if IDF deliberately targeted the convoy, absolutely disgusting. Not generally a conspiracy theorist but might Hamas do this? Apparently told people not to leave plus looks bad for Israel.

 

[Zeberdi]

Fair points.

So, given the unlikelihood of he neighbours entering an all out war, do you consider it reasonable that Israel responds to events such as the latest attack with such ferocity?

Someone will eventually need to resist the temptation to go a-smiting, and start the discussions that will lead to peace. Neither side seems remotely close to this yet, though.

Unreasonable in that as a direct retaliation to a specific attack, utterly disproportionate
Unreasonable in that this conflict arises from an illegal occupation of lands that are not mandated by anyone, including Israel, as being within in Israel’s State Borders.
Unreasonable in that every time Israel response to events with such ferocity, she commits violations of various International Law treaties, including roadblocking evacuation
Unreasonable that 33% of the death toll so far is from Gaza’s 40% of the population who are children under 15yrs of age
Unreasonable that these kids are seen by Israel fighting force as legitimate ‘collateral damage’ under International Law.
They are not - they are just kids

Gaza: Palestinian children save their cats as they flee the bombing

Palestinian children in Gaza hold on to a semblance of childhood as they flee with their feline friends in tow and even save them from the rubble. Hundreds of thousands...

www.middleeastmonitor.com

Perfectly reasonable for a bear to finally loose her rag and try and bite your head off if you keep poking her in the side for years on end ((but that goes for both sides)

 

[Questions]

Before Hamas there was the PLO (among others), cutting the genitals off athletes prior to murdering them

I’ve read a fair bit about that and there are many discrepancies in those reports as there were in the baby beheading stories. Pictures that circulated were in the 90’s concerning the 72 Munich killings

 

[Zeberdi]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67108364

Targetting a designated evacuation route is surely a War Crime. I can't imagine the hatred that drives people to act like this. Truly shocking.

Yeah - we saw this repeatedly in Ukraine citizens trying to leave ares of conflict on designated humanitarian evacuation corridors - some of these hits may be accidental but Russia was definitely targeting evacuees.

But also - Hamas don’t want the civilian population to leave - it’s their human shield, what will slow a full incursion but more importantly evacuate land that will be very hard for a million refugees to return to after hostilities cease which is for Hamas, Palestinians de facto loosing more land to the ‘Israeli Occupiers’.

Israel fire damaged the Rafa crossing a few days ago which also needs to be repaired.

Nobody on Israel’s Gaza borders want a million Gazan refugees trooping in

 

[Zeberdi]

This is all Moses fault.

Egypt’s you mean

 

[Justice]

This is all Moses fault.

Bit harsh, I know he left us for Chelsea but you have to let it go

 

[Bakero]

I found it interesting that this debate took place on GB News:



James Schneider, who I don't think I'd heard speak before, acquitted himself rather well. A good example of critical thinking Vs emotional thinking.

 

[Wozza]

Egypt’s you mean

Britain's you mean.

Great documentary, this.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

I blame the romans, who 2000+ years ago made sure the tribes of Israel were forcibly removed from “ Palestine” and were scattered to Yemen, Jordan, syria and throughout Europe.

they have a lot to answer for

 

[Hugo Rune]

I found it interesting that this debate took place on GB News:



James Schneider, who I don't think I'd heard speak before, acquitted himself rather well. A good example of critical thinking Vs emotional thinking.

The poor woman in the blue is desperate to find offence or cause an argument but she is just floundering. But she just can’t utter the subtext of those supporting Israel without question:

“An innocent Israeli life is more valuable than an innocent Palestinian life.”

 

[Zeberdi]

Britain's you mean.

Great documentary, this.

No I didn’t mean that at all - read back through the thread - I think I understand how we got here!

my ‘Egypt’ joke was in reference to @Questions joke that it was Moses’ fault (for starting the Great Diaspora)

Moses dates back to much earlier than the first World War you know -

 

[Questions]

I blame the romans, who 2000+ years ago made sure the tribes of Israel were forcibly removed from “ Palestine” and were scattered to Yemen, Jordan, syria and throughout Europe.

they have a lot to answer for

And they re/routed the River Lavant in Chichester. Absolute bastards.

 

[Wozza]

No I didn’t mean that at all - read back through the thread - I think I understand how we got here!

Fair enough. Doesn't change the fact that it's a great documentary.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Unreasonable in that as a direct retaliation to a specific attack, utterly disproportionate
Unreasonable in that this conflict arises from an illegal occupation of lands that are not mandated by anyone, including Israel, as being within in Israel’s State Borders.
Unreasonable in that every time Israel response to events with such ferocity, she commits violations of various International Law treaties, including roadblocking evacuation
Unreasonable that 33% of the death toll so far is from Gaza’s 40% of the population who are children under 15yrs of age
Unreasonable that these kids are seen by Israel fighting force as legitimate ‘collateral damage’ under International Law.
They are not - they are just kids

Gaza: Palestinian children save their cats as they flee the bombing

Palestinian children in Gaza hold on to a semblance of childhood as they flee with their feline friends in tow and even save them from the rubble. Hundreds of thousands...

www.middleeastmonitor.com

Perfectly reasonable for a bear to finally loose her rag and try and bite your head off if you keep poking her in the side for years on end ((but that goes for both sides)

Everything unreasonable then. I'm inclined to agree.

 

[MalmöGull]

Judaism is the Jewish religion.
Zionism is the belief in a safe(ish) homeland for Jews (regardless of practicing or not).
The overwhelming majority of Jews worldwide are Zionists

Quitely reading the thread with much interest. Reacted to this.
Is this actually the case yet? Before the 1940's, Zionism was a movement rejected by nearly all Jews.
I know it diversified and became more popular since these days but overwhelming majority?
Why jewish people wouldn't move to Israel in the first place was due to the bible saying a "miracle" would take them there.
Zionists was secular however and thought they needed politics to get back to Israel. But at the time most Jews were religious.

Some are still religious today and refuse Israel and zionism for that reason. Although "religious zionism" is a thing now.
Jews who where betrayed by Zionists also often reject Zionism.
My family is in that category. Many familys in Sweden is in that category.
Folke Bernadotte saved 30 000 Jews and was chosen the UN negotiator between Israel and Palestine.
Wanted two states and was killed by Zionist terrorists who also became future Israeli Prime Ministers and such.
Same Zionist terrorists who worked with Hitler (Haavara agreement). Same minds as today.
Am Jewish and proud but staying far from the fascist, nationalistic Zionist movement. Nazi collaborators and terrorists dragging the rest of us in the filth.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

And they re/routed the River Lavant in Chichester. Absolute bastards.

Isn’t it though

 

[Zeberdi]

Quitely reading the thread with much interest. Reacted to this.
Is this actually the case yet? Before the 1940's, Zionism was a movement rejected by nearly all Jews.
I know it diversified and became more popular since these days but overwhelming majority?
Why jewish people wouldn't move to Israel in the first place was due to the bible saying a "miracle" would take them there.
Zionists was secular however and thought they needed politics to get back to Israel. But at the time most Jews were religious.

Some are still religious today and refuse Israel and zionism for that reason. Although "religious zionism" is a thing now.
Jews who where betrayed by Zionists also often reject Zionism.
My family is in that category. Many familys in Sweden is in that category.
Folke Bernadotte saved 30 000 Jews and was chosen the UN negotiator between Israel and Palestine.
Wanted two states and was killed by Zionist terrorists who also became future Israeli Prime Ministers and such.
Same Zionist terrorists who worked with Hitler (Haavara agreement). Same minds as today.
Am Jewish and proud but staying far from the fascist, nationalistic Zionist movement. Nazi collaborators and terrorists dragging the rest of us in the filth.

Spot on and shalom!

I’m an Ashkenazi Jew (secular) and definitely not a Zionist in any extreme sense at all but do self-identify with Israel as ‘home of the Jews’ in a cultural/spiritual sense because of an emotional attachment to the Judaistic narrative that’s inextricably linked to my self-identity. It’s therefore gut wrenching for me to see such a violent escalation to Palestinian question for both Jews and Palestinians. I did cover ‘Zionism’ about 4 or 5 days ago on this thread with links to different aspects and ideologies it embraces in particular the Religious Zionistic elements of Netanyah’s Government- I’m probably only one of two Jewish people that have contributed to this thread - (or there’s been more that haven’t said anything- it would be interesting to know - I think people tend to skip past posts a lot of the time , especially when they are as numerous and long as mine are at times!