[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

Removed. Felt it was a bit insensitive.

 

[Simster]

IMHO. They want a regional conflict. They are trying to trigger a final solution. They know what Israel will do. They know it will be shock and awe and unpalatable. They’ve planned for it. Hardliners get the levers of power once Israel goes batshit. Iran has Arab superpower ambitions. They’re cold-war enmity towards Saudi is documented. Iran and Saudi want regional supremacy. The idea of any deal with Israel brokered by appeasing-Arab states is anathema to Iran. Oil is off the table in 50-years and power-dynamics shift. Iran detests the western/US alignment of Arab governments. Israel was fractured politically; the US is. It’s VERY complicated, very f***ed up and will make Ukraine look like a skirmish if it goes off.

People will look at states like Saudi and Iran when it comes to this conflict, but it's really very simple: if Israel pull out of the occupied west bank territory and cede East Jerusalem to a new Palestinian state, this conflict would be over within 5 minutes.

Most sane people can see a) Hamas are a horrible self-serving organisation, b) the right-wing Israeli state have indulged in state-sponsored law-breaking for decades and c) those in charge of Iran (and Saudi) are generally currently forces for the worse, but this conflict simply goes away with a sane, reasonable land agreement that includes East Jerusalem.

 

[Zeberdi]

No. The OP accused the Israeli government of being a terror group, not Israel.

It is perfectly reasonable to believe both the below statements:

1. Israel is a recognised nation state with the right to defend its borders and citizens.

2. The current Israeli government has indulged in deliberately provoking the Palestinian people with incursions and intimidation, and in placing the Palestinian people under intolerable levels of intrusion into their day to day lives.

From what I can see, it’s frankly a mess on all sides. Hamas want Israel’s destruction, there’s no desire for peace to be found there, but Israel’s government has chosen the path of fighting fire with fire, which frankly just leads to everyone and everything getting burned.

3. I’d have been far happier if Israel’s voters and government had chosen to hold the moral high ground, keep believing in a two state solution, and patiently insist on the message that they were ready to discuss a two nation state solution in good faith. However, I can also understand that while Hamas hold such power and influence in Palestine, there’s simply no genuine appetite for peace on the Palestinian side either, and I can understand Israel growing weary of waiting for the Palestinians to adopt a less aggressive approach.

4. I don’t see a good outcome for anyone on either side of this. Israel needs a government that isn’t making unrealistic demands in order to hold meaningful negotiations, and the Palestinians need to be represented by individuals who accept Israel’s existence and are willing to coexist peacefully.

At the present time neither seems true to me.

1. Everyone agrees that Israel (and any sovereign, nation state on earth btw) has a right to defend herself from her enemies and agrees the acts of Hamas constituted an unprecedented terrorist attack within her borders.

2. To say “The current Israeli government has indulged in deliberately provoking the Palestinian people with incursions and intimidation, and in placing the Palestinian people under intolerable levels of intrusion into their day to day lives” while absolutely true is also a vast downplay of the conditions the people of the OPT have been living under.

It’s too easy to only blame Netanyahu’s Government for the current crisis - Israel has illegally occupied the OPT of East Jeruselem, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank since the 6 Day War in 1967. Since that time, the Palestinian people have been subject to documented crimes against humanity, an apartheid system of oppression, repeated punishment arial bombardments on civilians, torture, blockades, destruction of housing, annexation of illegally occupied land by stealth by using jewish settlement expansion, the list goes on … Hamas has gained political traction in the OPT directly as a result of the conditions that the Palestinians have been subject to under Occupation-

While the attack by Hamas is abhorrent and in no way condonable - the watching world needs to understand how we got here;

I posted this up thread but posting it again fyi

Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory - Global Centre for the Responsibility to Protect

Israeli forces have perpetrated likely atrocity crimes in Gaza and the Occupied West Bank, including possible war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing and genocide. Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have also perpetrated likely atrocity crimes.

www.globalr2p.org

3. I agree a peace plan committed to the two state solution would have been the right and most likely roadmap to peace but Israeli’s settlement expansion onto lands that would have been included in a ‘Palestinian State’ makes that objective increasingly impractical - unfortunately political opinion in the OPT is moving on from that for that reason.


4. This 2023 War will go down as the bloodiest we’ve seen for decades in the ongoing Israel-Palestinian conflict both for civilians and armed forces. I agree that it’s not possible to see a good outcome at the moment - Hamas will not be ‘destroyed’ and Israel shows no signs of ending the Occupation…

We can only hope at this stage that the conflict doesn’t spillover into a wider war in the region and once things have settled, continue to work for peace and equitable outcomes for all people, Palestinian and Israeli alike.

 

[Zeberdi]

I'm stunned that has been broadcast in the US, let alone on CNN. Someone putting an educated, well informed Palestinian case whilst condemning the violence.

I can't believe that was intended

Nothing like that on Sky this morning - Labour shadow HS being marauded for Labour’s apparent platform sharing with the Palestinian Ambassador and activists whilst Sky ignoring any impacts Israel’s ‘punishment’ bombardment is having on Gaza - unsurprisingly a very one sided perspective.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Nothing like that on Sky this morning - Labour shadow HS being marauded for Labour’s apparent platform sharing with the Palestinian Ambassedor

So Sky have tighter political control than CNN - Who would've thunk it

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I know. Have the Jewish people never been displaced from their homes?


I agree that what they're doing is wrong. Has no wrong been done to Israel by its neighbours? If Israel's neighbours had been peaceful towards Israel, there would be no problem, and Palestinians would be living in peace. Am I saying that two wrongs make a right? No I'm not. But Israel have learned to survive aggression from their neighbours by showing force. I don't like it, I think they should leave the occupied territories. But Israel's neighbours are not innocent in all this.

What do people think the region will look like in 300 years time? Will it be similar to now, or maybe dominated by a massive Israel, or will Israel have disappeared with its people wiped out? I'm guessing the first or last option, and definitely not the middle one.

A simplistic comparison to say the least. Israel's neighbours are aggressive to the state of Israel because it was carved out of lands by the USA and Britain with no respect for the people living there at the time. Britain just thought, well we own the land, we'll do what we like with our mates.

Now I don't know about you, if the British government and say France suddenly decided to carve a slice out of Sussex for all the channel boat people, give them independence as a state, AND arm them to the teeth ( despite those boat people deciding to kill British soldiers like the Israelis did ), I'd use what ever means to bring that slice of Sussex back under control of the UK - even if it meant me being a terrorist. Most people become terrorists due to circumstances beyond their control.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I do find the prevailing attitude that revenge attacks by Israel are normal and acceptable to be slightly odd.

Surely if they are just firing rockets into civilian areas as retribution they should be condemned as strongly as Hamas.

But the reporting always focusses on the provocation that proceeded it.

 

[portlock seagull]

A simplistic comparison to say the least. Israel's neighbours are aggressive to the state of Israel because it was carved out of lands by the USA and Britain with no respect for the people living there at the time. Britain just thought, well we own the land, we'll do what we like with our mates.

Now I don't know about you, if the British government and say France suddenly decided to carve a slice out of Sussex for all the channel boat people, give them independence as a state, AND arm them to the teeth ( despite those boat people deciding to kill British soldiers like the Israelis did ), I'd use what ever means to bring that slice of Sussex back under control of the UK - even if it meant me being a terrorist. Most people become terrorists due to circumstances beyond their control.

When do people move on I wonder? All lands were ‘carved out’ as you put it once upon a time. Boundaries come and go continually. As do the people that populate them. Putin is right by that reckoning to want Ukraine back. And weren’t there Jews living there for thousands of years before too, and therefore equally lay claim to the state of Israel?

 

[Simster]

A simplistic comparison to say the least. Israel's neighbours are aggressive to the state of Israel because it was carved out of lands by the USA and Britain with no respect for the people living there at the time. Britain just thought, well we own the land, we'll do what we like with our mates.

Now I don't know about you, if the British government and say France suddenly decided to carve a slice out of Sussex for all the channel boat people, give them independence as a state, AND arm them to the teeth ( despite those boat people deciding to kill British soldiers like the Israelis did ), I'd use what ever means to bring that slice of Sussex back under control of the UK - even if it meant me being a terrorist. Most people become terrorists due to circumstances beyond their control.

This is kind of what has happened to Serbia in Kosovo. Kosovo is considered the cradle of that nation, but constant Albanian migration into the area has kind of forced them out, and yet the Serbs get terrible press for their determination to keep the area under their control.

 

[portlock seagull]

I do find the prevailing attitude that revenge attacks by Israel are normal and acceptable to be slightly odd.

Surely if they are just firing rockets into civilian areas as retribution they should be condemned as strongly as Hamas.

But the reporting always focusses on the provocation that proceeded it.

It’s a war. It only really matters who wins. Everything is acceptable if you’re involved rather than commenting comfortably from your armchair like we are

 

[Guinness Boy]

Interview on CNN (not normally known for balance in its coverage of the region)

It's an interesting interview and gives context for sure. I don't agree with him that Hamas haven't attacked civilians. They obviously have, at very least at that Music Festival.

Your commentary, however, and that of the X poster are unhelpful and very close to the 'Jews control the media' trope. CNN is well known as pro Liberal / Democrat Party in the US so is certainly not balanced, but over the years many of its reports on the Middle East have provided a level of balance not seen otherwise in the US media. In particular Christiane Amanpour has worked for their international news division for decades and is well regarded by other international journalists, citied as probably the best in the world by John Simpson. She's been taken to task by the Israeli government but also had an interview terminated on her by Yasser Arafat back in the day. I fear we're not far off a claim that the BBC aren't being impartial, just because they're not parroting the Palestinian line all the time.

 

[fly high]

People will look at states like Saudi and Iran when it comes to this conflict, but it's really very simple: if Israel pull out of the occupied west bank territory and cede East Jerusalem to a new Palestinian state, this conflict would be over within 5 minutes.

Most sane people can see a) Hamas are a horrible self-serving organisation, b) the right-wing Israeli state have indulged in state-sponsored law-breaking for decades and c) those in charge of Iran (and Saudi) are generally currently forces for the worse, but this conflict simply goes away with a sane, reasonable land agreement that includes East Jerusalem.

Not sure the solution is that simple, if only it was. I'm sure there are thousands of Palestinians & Israelis who would agree but Hamas' aim along with Iran is to wipe Israel off the face of the map & slaughter all Jews or at the very least drive them out of the Middle East.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

It’s a war. It only really matters who wins. Everything is acceptable if you’re involved rather than commenting comfortably from your armchair like we are

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure everything isn't acceptable in a war

And is it even a war? Israel say it is of course. But it looks a little asymmetric to be one. It's a vastly armed nation state against an organisation who are armed and murderous, but couldn't be said to be an army. The coming weeks is likely to look more like an extermination than a war.

 

[Simster]

Not sure the solution is that simple, if only it was. I'm sure there are thousands of Palestinians & Israelis who would agree but Hamas' aim along with Iran is to wipe Israel off the face of the map & slaughter all Jews or at the very least drive them out of the Middle East.

Indeed, but Hamas wouldn't have a foothold if there was a land agreement in place that was acceptable to their side. It's like the IRA. Once there was a neutral police service, an agreement of freedom of movement across Ireland, a power sharing agreement and so on - everybody felt that was enough to get on with their lives.

 

[Live by the sea]

 

[Live by the sea]

People will look at states like Saudi and Iran when it comes to this conflict, but it's really very simple: if Israel pull out of the occupied west bank territory and cede East Jerusalem to a new Palestinian state, this conflict would be over within 5 minutes.

Most sane people can see a) Hamas are a horrible self-serving organisation, b) the right-wing Israeli state have indulged in state-sponsored law-breaking for decades and c) those in charge of Iran (and Saudi) are generally currently forces for the worse, but this conflict simply goes away with a sane, reasonable land agreement that includes East Jerusalem.

You are right the conflict would be over and so would Israel as a democratic civilised country with western values and a majority Jewish population. What you are asking for is similar to what the Iranian leader has asked for ….

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

You are right the conflict would be over and so would Israel as a democratic civilised country with western values and a majority Jewish population. What you are asking for is similar to what the Iranian leader has asked for ….

Why would Israel be over as a democratic civilised country?

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

This is just dreadful and I don't belittle the appalling crimes which have been committed by Hamas.

But how much of this has been verified? Obviously the death toll at the camp is currently being established. But the reports of rapes etc, has that all been substantiated?

I ask this as a genuine question as I don't wish to view footage this upsetting and I don't trust twitter as a reliable source of information

 

[peterward]

People will look at states like Saudi and Iran when it comes to this conflict, but it's really very simple: if Israel pull out of the occupied west bank territory and cede East Jerusalem to a new Palestinian state, this conflict would be over within 5 minutes.

Most sane people can see a) Hamas are a horrible self-serving organisation, b) the right-wing Israeli state have indulged in state-sponsored law-breaking for decades and c) those in charge of Iran (and Saudi) are generally currently forces for the worse, but this conflict simply goes away with a sane, reasonable land agreement that includes East Jerusalem.

I know you say this with the best intentions, but it's an insane and impossible suggestion.

The West Bank suggestion maybe feasible.

E Jerusalem never is, and never will be.

It includes all of the old city, and sacred monuments at the centre of both the Jewish and Christian faith, yes it now also includes the Al Aqsa Mosque built on top of the previous Jewish King Solomons temple. The temple Mount, its western wall, the wailing wall, always has loads of religious Jews praying at it, is as sacred as Mecca is to Muslims, its the Jewish religions most holy site.

There isn't a Jewish leader that could survive politically or even physically if he decided to hand over the old city which includes the temple Mount to Palestinian Arabs.

Secular thinking or even rational discourse won't work with die hard religious extremists.

The only possible secular solution for Jerusalem (that will still be rejected) is a Northern Ireland type power sharing assembly.

E Jesruslam can only be solely Palestinian by force, if that were possible.

 

[Zeberdi]

A simplistic comparison to say the least. Israel's neighbours are aggressive to the state of Israel because it was carved out of lands by the USA and Britain with no respect for the people living there at the time. Britain just thought, well we own the land, we'll do what we like with our mates.

Now I don't know about you, if the British government and say France suddenly decided to carve a slice out of Sussex for all the channel boat people, give them independence as a state, AND arm them to the teeth ( despite those boat people deciding to kill British soldiers like the Israelis did ), I'd use what ever means to bring that slice of Sussex back under control of the UK - even if it meant me being a terrorist. Most people become terrorists due to circumstances beyond their control.

Apt sentiment but not quite an apt analogy- the contested land of the OPT, ie Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank is being illegally occupied by Israel by rule (even though their forces withdrew in 2005) - it was never mandated in the 1947 resolution or part of the modern State of Israel and was never British land at all to ‘carve up’ but occupied by the Egyptians until the 6 Day War in 1967 (and you can go back to the Canaanites, and then ancient Egyptians if we really want to start tracing back the complicated rights of settlement to Gaza to the land known as OPT! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gaza#:~:text=Gaza came under Egyptian rule,the 1967 Six-Day War. It’s been conquered and surrendered time and time again over the centuries in main because of the strategic geographical area but also because of it’s history of cultural and racial diversity…

@peterward is right, East Jerusalem being handed to a Palestinian State will always be a deal breaker for the Israelis because of the religious connotations

Just a bit of armchair thinking but I could envisage something along the lines of the independent Vatican City State with Jordan as it’s Hashemite custodianship (as it is custodian already of Christian and Muslim Holy sites) shared with a custodianship by Israel might work for East Jerusalem at least …