[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[Zeberdi]

No offence taken. What has occurred is truly horrific and no one can deny that. These are some shocking figures I have found:

• At least 18,000+ Palestinians and 1,300+ Israelis have been killed in the 2023 Israel-Hamas War.
• ...with a further 1,900,000+ Palestinians displaced within Gaza and 500,000+ Israelis displaced.

I don't ignore the news but sometimes I just cannot watch some of the content. It is all too depressing and, frankly, f***ed up.

Do you have sources for these figures please - the Gazan death toll is underestimated and the displacement of Israelis is overestimated according to other sources?

January 14 - 100 Days War

Most sources are reporting the Hamas Heath Ministry figures (in the absence of anyone else collating them or being in a position to) of around 24,000 + Gazan fatalities (with about 7,000 missing/buried under rubble) of which 10,000 are children which would make it nearer 30,000. The IDF are claiming 9,000 Hamas fighters have been killed although that would make nearly every man killed a Hamas fighter according to the IDF since around two thirds of the fatalities are women and children. ( Aid agencies and MSM have said there is no evidence the Health Ministry figures are inflated and may even be an underestimate https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...ncies-consider-gaza-toll-reliable-2023-10-27/)

Reports I’ve seen put evacuated/displaced Israelis at around 96,000 in the Northern border towns and another 117,000 in Southern Israel near Gaza, (the quoted ‘500,000‘ is well over double that figure). It should be noted, devastating as it is for Israelis to be forced to temporarily evacuate to safe areas to stay with families or to hotels, it is a temporary displacement and their empty homes are being guarded by soldiers, Gazans don’t have that choice. The displacement of nearly 2 million Gazans is from homes and areas of infrastructure completely destroyed - they will have no homes to return to but instead face life in a refugee camp after the war There is also no where in Gaza that is safe for them - they can not leave to go to hotels and family - refugee evacuation sites are being targeted daily.

That said, ordinary Israeli civilians near the war zones are also being impacted heavily by the war and the situation is for them is terrifying, especially for those who are scared to go home for understandably they are traumatised by the events of the Hamas Massacre 7/10 and the possibility of facing a similar type raid by Hezbollah. What I know of Jewish Israeli mentality, after decades of rockets, suicide bombs, they are very stoic and typically grow ‘use’ to the violence - for them to say are scared of what is happening, enough not to want to return to their homes is an indication of how far this conflict departs from previous conflicts in the scale of escalation risk.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...hern-border-leaves-evacuees-limbo-2024-01-11/

Just tragic all round with millions of people feeling powerless to do anything about it.

 

[Krafty]

Do you have sources for these figures please - the Gazan death toll is underestimated and the displacement of Israelis is overestimated according to other sources?

I found these figures in Wikipedia's article '2023 Israel-Hamas war'.

The Gazan death toll (23,968+) was referenced from the Gaza Health Ministry and Government Information Office.
The displacement of Israelis (500,000) was referenced in an October article by Barron's.

I understand these figures may not be accurate.

The previous Gazan death toll that I mentioned (18,000+) was from another Wikipedia article that referenced an earlier source.

 

[Zeberdi]

I found these figures in Wikipedia's article '2023 Israel-Hamas war'.

The Gazan death toll (23,968+) was referenced from the Gaza Health Ministry and Government Information Office.
The displacement of Israelis (500,000) was referenced in an October article by Barron's.

The previous Gazan death toll that I mentioned (18,000+) was from another Wikipedia article that referenced an earlier source.

Ah, that makes sense - when you quoted the 18,000 was from 2 or 3 weeks ago, that explains such a discrepancy- I think all these figures are coming out of the Hamas Health Ministry so no way of verifying anything (and they won’t be exactly accurate regardless of the source for obvious reasons.)

Gazans are being killed at a rate of 250 per day, according to Oxfam’s refs, so the weekly death toll changes quite significantly from week to week - this was last week’s :

• According to UNOCHA, there were 23,074 reported deaths in Gaza between 7 October 23 and 7 January 24, an average of 250.8 per day and 330 deaths so far in the West Bank.

Daily death rate in Gaza higher than any other major 21st Century conflict - Oxfam | Oxfam International

www.oxfam.org

 

[sydney]

ill desist with the side tracking then ...sorry , i just love an argument .....i just don't see the point in Australia sending a gay , Asian mp to Israel and Palestine to try and broker a peace deal ....!!?? i mean ffs , why has it taken South Africa to call the Israelis out ...it's a disgusting state of affairs and unfortunately all to easy to fly off the handle when discussing ....ths world is a pretty f***ed up place at the moment and looks like there's a good chance its going to get more so.

and i have zero trust in the fuckers running the show either ...none of them.

 

[sydney]

the Axis of evil ..?? he's backed by the axis of evil ffs....!!

 

[nicko31]

Basically Israel loves International law but only when they get the result they want.

 

[Zeberdi]

Netanyahu says Israel will be from the ‘River to the Sea’ - all land South/West of the River Jordan will be under Israel control after the war. There will be no Palestinian State.

“Benjamin Netanyahu has sought to obstruct the establishment of a Palestinian state throughout his political career, despite occasional lukewarm endorsements of the idea. His public statement on Thursday, however, represented his sharpest rebuttal of US foreign policy at a time when the Biden administration has expended huge domestic political capital to support Israel militarily and in international forums.”

Netanyahu tells US he opposes creation of Palestinian state after Gaza war

PM rebuts White House by saying all territory west of Jordan River would be under Israeli security control

www.theguardian.com

 

[A1X]

I wonder if it’s deemed as offensive when said by the Israelis as apparently it is when said by those who are pro-Palestine? Bet it’s not in the eyes of the media.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

Netanyahu says Israel will be from the ‘River to the Sea’ - all land South/West of the River Jordan will be under Israel control after the war. There will be no Palestinian State.

“Benjamin Netanyahu has sought to obstruct the establishment of a Palestinian state throughout his political career, despite occasional lukewarm endorsements of the idea. His public statement on Thursday, however, represented his sharpest rebuttal of US foreign policy at a time when the Biden administration has expended huge domestic political capital to support Israel militarily and in international forums.”

Netanyahu tells US he opposes creation of Palestinian state after Gaza war

PM rebuts White House by saying all territory west of Jordan River would be under Israeli security control

www.theguardian.com

Time for the US to drop their support.

 

[Hotchilidog]

Netanyahu says Israel will be from the ‘River to the Sea’ - all land South/West of the River Jordan will be under Israel control after the war. There will be no Palestinian State.

“Benjamin Netanyahu has sought to obstruct the establishment of a Palestinian state throughout his political career, despite occasional lukewarm endorsements of the idea. His public statement on Thursday, however, represented his sharpest rebuttal of US foreign policy at a time when the Biden administration has expended huge domestic political capital to support Israel militarily and in international forums.”

Netanyahu tells US he opposes creation of Palestinian state after Gaza war

PM rebuts White House by saying all territory west of Jordan River would be under Israeli security control

www.theguardian.com

Clearly genocidal language, apparently

 

[thejackal]

Clearly genocidal language, apparently

This is very obviously the main barrier to peace.

Right-wing nutters, with no intention of ever letting the Palestinians achieve statehood, have been in charge in Israel ever since Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated (by a Netanyahu-supporting, right-wing Jewish nutter) in 1995.

Leah Rabin, Yitzhak's widow, went to her grave blaming Netanyahu personally for her husband's death, and you can see why. Netanyahu called for Rabin's death many times and even led a demonstration against him where he walked in front of a mock cortege, complete with hearse. All this while Rabin was still alive.

Netanyahu is a danger to world peace - he has been for literally decades.

He is a dangerous, evil man, in my opinion.

 

[Hotchilidog]

This is very obviously the main barrier to peace.

Right-wing nutters, with no intention of ever letting the Palestinians achieve statehood, have been in charge in Israel ever since Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated (by a Netanyahu-supporting, right-wing Jewish nutter) in 1995.

Leah Rabin, Yitzhak's wife, went to her grave blaming Netanyahu for his death, and you can see why. Netanyahu called for Rabin's death many times and even led a demonstration against him where he walked in front of a mock cortege, complete with hearse. All this while Rabin was still alive.

Netanyahu is a danger to world peace - he has been for literally decades.

He is a dangerous, evil man, in my opinion.

I agree.

 

[thejackal]

In case anyone is interested in Rabin's assassination, and Nuthead-yahoo's role in it.

Yitzhak Rabin: ‘He never knew it was one of his people who shot him in the back’

Twenty-five years after the death of the Israeli prime minister, those who were there recall the night two bullets altered the destiny of two nations

www.theguardian.com

The road to Yitzhak Rabin’s assassination began in Oslo. It was there that two teams of negotiators, Palestinian and Israeli, met in secret, gradually forging the Oslo accords, sealed in September 1993 by a handshake on the White House lawn between Rabin and the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat. Rabin delivered the ceremony’s most memorable line: “We say to you today in a loud and a clear voice: enough of blood and tears. Enough.”

The then leader of the opposition, Benjamin Netanyahu, was the star speaker at two now infamous demonstrations, where the crowd’s slogans included “Death to Rabin”. In July 1995, Netanyahu walked at the head of a mock funeral procession featuring a fake black coffin.

Israel’s head of internal security asked Netanyahu to dial down the rhetoric, warning that the prime minister’s life was in danger. Netanyahu declined. Perhaps he, like Rabin, didn’t imagine an Israeli Jew would ever kill one of their own; any threat surely came from elsewhere.

 

[thejackal]

I obviously agree with your assessment as do many now I think

As I posted back in October

[News] - Hamas/Gaza/Israel

Ultra-Zionist settler-nutters attacking their Israeli Arab neighbours in the next village should have the full weight of the law applied against then in a civilised democracy. Oh hang on, that doesn't apply in that f*rked-up landscape. In fact the shooters will be more often than not aided and...

www.northstandchat.com

The question is, what next?

I wonder if those being gung ho about retaliation strikes on Yemen, understand the wider geopolitical realities of Iran‘s fight for influence in the ME (or Russia’s ) and how Saudi Arabia and Israel (backed by the US) are in the thick of trying to counter that influence, including in Yemen? Or that the strikes on Yemen are small part of the US’s bigger ‘War on Terror’ - certain elements of which, since 9/11 have been very much open to debate as to their legality but particularly their efficacy in destroying fundamentalist islamic ideology?

Without going into it again

[News] - Hamas/Gaza/Israel

What happened this month in Israel I do not condone in any way but after 7 decades of repression can we really be that surprised? When there is extreme poverty and no hope bad things happen. We see it all over the world, if it was in an African country few would be interested Arguably it’s the...

www.northstandchat.com

It looks to me like Israel is trying leading the West into a direct confrontation with Iran by conducting the war in Gaza in a way that can only be described as genocidal and with the expressed intention to further their expansionist policies in the region - while most spectators seem to be incognisant of the fact that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinian people have coalesced jihadist terror groups throughout the ME into a fighting force against the continued bombardment of Gaza in a way they have never been before due to partisan differences - they are not going to watch Gazans be subjected to the horrors they are enduring from the sidelines - skirmishes with groups in Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq have made that clear. One fundamentalist terrorist group can no longer be annihilated without risking an escalatory response from other terrorist groups in the region.

The US and UK clearly are losing influence on Israel and I would say it is doubtful whether Iran or any other Country in the ME has complete control over the Houthis, Hamas, Hezbollah or any other terrorist group in the ME.

So short of there being a regime change in Israel that would recognise the fundamental rights of Palestinians to self-determination and a regime change in Iran that stops funding terror groups where does it go from here?

Fair questions. I don't think any of us have the answers!

 

[dejavuatbtn]

Fair questions. I don't think any of us have the answers!

And if we did we’d have precious little time for NSC!

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

Probably been posted before, but I can’t be bothered trawling through such a large thread.
This probably explains why Netanyahu is ignoring Americas request.

 

[Zeberdi]

Probably been posted before, but I can’t be bothered trawling through such a large thread.
This probably explains why Netanyahu is ignoring Americas request

Yes, the video has been up before but a long while back so thanks for posting it.

However, I’ll probably scare the bejeeesus out of you now … :

Israel has wanted the West to ‘deal’ with Iran for years (some might say understandably) but the US/EU/UK have exercised restraint and prudence, relying on negotiation and diplomatic efforts - until that is Trump, in cohorts with Netanyahu, tore up the Nuclear Deal with Iran ending the monitoring access to Iran’s nuclear programme creating a security crisis situation that may force the West’s hands to ‘do something about Iran’. Getting rid of Iran’ is a (reckless!) part of extremists’ narrative that has worked for Netanyahu politically by allowing him to position himself as the leader that would stand up to Iran’s nuclear threat - Israel ‘ignoring the US‘s requests’ as you point out, leaves one wondering if the belligerent child has finally decided to pursue its own path with reckless abandonment …primarily to protect his ailing political career?

“Iran is responsible for 90% of the problems in the Middle East. This regime threatens to destroy us. We will not wait for a sharp sword to be placed on our necks. The IDF and the Shin Bet and the Mossad will do whatever it takes (to prevent this).”

Benjamin Netanyahu 28th January 2023

“…There is an empire of evil emanating from Tehran, spending billions of dollars in arms and money and people's well-being to derail the entire stability of the world and the region. They've attacked the United States forces two nights ago, openly. They have proxies all over the region quietly lurking to undermine any peace process and any stability of the world. And that is exactly what we are seeing – and they have to be faced by a very strong coalition’”

President Herzog World Economic Forum, Davos, 2024

The US/UK must absolutely not green light Netanyahu that we would support a direct conflict with Iran.

Netanyahu is drawing the US into war with Iran

The Israeli prime minister’s persistent obsession with the Islamic Republic may drag the US into another war.

www.aljazeera.com

References only (no need to read but all back up the assertion!)

Rice meeting with Defense Minister Ehud Barak

www.jpost.com

Shadow warrior: Benjamin Netanyahu takes a dangerous gamble with Iran

Israel’s prime minister is creating a climate of fear and crisis as his best hope for holding on to power

www.theguardian.com

Israeli President Calls For Coalition Against Iran's 'Evil Empire'

Israeli president Isaac Herzog called on the international community on Thursday to create “a very strong coalition” against “an empire of evil emanating from Iran”.

www.iranintl.com

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-warns-iran-deal-still-possible-vows-to-revert-to-openly-opposing-it/

Netanyahu wants to stop Iran going nuclear - now he needs int'l support

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu seeks international support for a credible military threat to stop Iran’s nuclear race.

www.jpost.com

 

[A1X]

 

[Zeberdi]

Updates of escalating conflict throughout ME -

BBC reports (in link below) on the trigger points which have become multi-directional and involve multiple protagonists: Civilian death toll from Gaza continues to rise as the IDF bomb hospitals, UN compounds and food queues. 2 hospitals in Southern Gaza’s largest city, Khan Younis, are reported as ‘encircled’ with displaced civilians, medical staff and patients trapped inside:

Gaza health ministry says 20 Palestinians killed in strike on food aid queue

An Israeli strike on Gaza City killed 20 Palestinians and wounded 150 who were queuing for food aid on Thursday, Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry said, in what a Palestinian coalition called a "war crime." The Israeli military said it was looking into the report. The National and Islamic...

uk.news.yahoo.com

Israeli attacks on Gaza shelters a ‘pattern’, says UN

UNRWA says Israeli assurances of protecting civilians “not followed up”, as death toll from shelter attack rises to 13.

www.aljazeera.com

Understanding a week of missile strikes across Middle East

From the Red Sea to Gaza to Iran, the past week has deepened fears of conflict spreading.

www.bbc.co.uk

Note the presence of al-Qaeda affiliate in Yemen which, along with the Taliban’s recent takeover of Afghanistan, are undergoing something of a global resurgence - The US/UK strikes on Houthis in Lebanon risk either creating a terrorist group power vacuum, at worse trigger al-Qaeda to coalesce support with other terrorist groups already fighting against Israel’s bombardment in Gaza.


US/Israel/UK strikes on Houthis, Hezbollah and Hamas in the region is like Hercules cutting off the head of Hydra - cut it off and it just keep multiplying …

Yemen’s al-Qaeda: Expanding the Base | Crisis Group

Thriving on conflict, sectarianism, and local opportunism, al-Qaeda’s affiliates are stronger than ever in Yemen. To shrink their growing base will require better governance in vulnerable areas, not treating all Sunni Islamists as one enemy, and above all ending Yemen’s civil war.

www.crisisgroup.org

 

[heathgate]

Updates of escalating conflict throughout ME -

BBC reports (in link below) on the trigger points which have become multi-directional and involve multiple protagonists: Civilian death toll from Gaza continues to rise as the IDF bomb hospitals, UN compounds and food queues. 2 hospitals in Southern Gaza’s largest city, Khan Younis, are reported as ‘encircled’ with displaced civilians, medical staff and patients trapped inside:

Gaza health ministry says 20 Palestinians killed in strike on food aid queue

An Israeli strike on Gaza City killed 20 Palestinians and wounded 150 who were queuing for food aid on Thursday, Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry said, in what a Palestinian coalition called a "war crime." The Israeli military said it was looking into the report. The National and Islamic...

uk.news.yahoo.com

Israeli attacks on Gaza shelters a ‘pattern’, says UN

UNRWA says Israeli assurances of protecting civilians “not followed up”, as death toll from shelter attack rises to 13.

www.aljazeera.com

Understanding a week of missile strikes across Middle East

From the Red Sea to Gaza to Iran, the past week has deepened fears of conflict spreading.

www.bbc.co.uk

View attachment 173681


View attachment 173682


Note the presence of al-Qaeda affiliate in Yemen which, along with the Taliban’s recent takeover of Afghanistan, are undergoing something of a global resurgence - The US/UK strikes on Houthis in Lebanon will either create a terrorist group power vacuum, at worse trigger al-Qaeda to coalesce support with other terrorist groups already fighting against Israel’s bombardment in Gaza.


US/Israel/UK strikes on Houthis, Hezbollah and Hamas in the region is like Hercules cutting off the head of Hydra - cut it off and it just keep multiplying …

Yemen’s al-Qaeda: Expanding the Base | Crisis Group

Thriving on conflict, sectarianism, and local opportunism, al-Qaeda’s affiliates are stronger than ever in Yemen. To shrink their growing base will require better governance in vulnerable areas, not treating all Sunni Islamists as one enemy, and above all ending Yemen’s civil war.

www.crisisgroup.org

Looking at this sequence, in particular the regional map with event graphics, it's telling that the trigger event is absent.... ie the savage slaughter and rancid social media frenzy of circa 1300 Israelis.