[News] Hamas/Gaza/Israel

[peterward]

Corbyns Michael Howard moment?

Very combustible interview.

 

[Hastings gull]

You are entitled to your opinion.

My comments were related to people attending marches not everyone full stop.

The current trending news items are about marches which are about bringing peace to the Palestinians , if they were neutral marches about bringing peace to the area they would not be full of Palestinian flags which are a national emblem.

Most of the stuff I watch is mainstream BBC or I read articles from the Guardian or Independent, interleaved with stuff which hits my Facebook timeline most of which I ignore because it is pushing one line or the other. I did however see one video on facebook which the 'peace marchers' in Australia were calling 'gas the Jews' but maybe you consider that was banter. I also see a lot of clips of people going out of their way to rip down posters about the hostages i.e. to deny it has happened . I saw another video saying Israeli's fire on Palestinians , all I saw was a group of people move one way and then run back after some shots were fired absolutely no imagery of the IDF shooting.

I have made it clear that I think ANY military response by Israel was wrong, read my posts which have annoyed Zeberdi. Its not because I think Israel is not 'entitled' to respond but because it was always going to be a mess and Israel will be portrayed as the oppressor. You cannot separate out civilians and armed terrorists when they morph into one and are co-located with their families you have to be a lot smarter than that. So the answer, certainly in the short term, is that Israel should have worked on getting the hostages back and showing the world what HAMAS is. It should have then identified the assailants who survived and taken appropriate action. A military action of the type being undertaken won't ever solve the bigger problem.

Your answer - so simple isn't it. You ask hamas, possibly via an intermediary, for the return of the hostages, they obligingly agree and let you know who they are, so you can eliminate them. Then you tip toe through Gaza, shooting any terrorist, avoiding those used as shields and any damage to property. Job done.

 

[beorhthelm]

Corbyns Michael Howard moment?

Very combustible interview.

cant stand even seconds of Piers and his constant interruptions to find out.

however does trigger a burning question, or observation, why do the unions and left find so much time for the Palestinian cause? of all the causes around the world, this one has so much attention over decades.

 

[Krafty]

My comments were related to people attending marches not everyone full stop.

The current trending news items are about marches which are about bringing peace to the Palestinians, if they were neutral marches about bringing peace to the area they would not be full of Palestinian flags which are a national emblem.

Is there an issue with the marches wanting to bring peace for the Palestinians? I've seen pro-Israel protests in London, waving their Israeli flags, would you also criticise that for not being a "neutral march"? I doubt that the majority of the protesters want the destruction of either country, and are instead advocating for peace in Israel and Palestine - but you think otherwise, because they aren't waving the flags of both countries in their marches.

Most of the stuff I watch is mainstream BBC or I read articles from the Guardian or Independent, interleaved with stuff which hits my Facebook timeline most of which I ignore because it is pushing one line or the other. I did however see one video on facebook which the 'peace marchers' in Australia were calling 'gas the Jews'. I also see a lot of clips of people going out of their way to rip down posters about the hostages i.e. to deny it has happened . I saw another video saying Israeli's fire on Palestinians , all I saw was a group of people move one way and then run back after some shots were fired absolutely no imagery of the IDF shooting.

So you have seen a few stories of Palestinian protesters doing hideous acts and immediately associate it with the rest of them. Isn't that slightly naive? That's like reading the incident of that Brighton fan headbutting another in Marseille, and thinking that all other Brighton fans must be doing the same, even though we know that isn't the case.

I must repeat my question as you previously ignored it: do you think that the Palestinian protests are 'hate marches'? This should be answered with yes or no.

 

[Hastings gull]

Is there an issue with the marches wanting to bring peace for the Palestinians? I've seen pro-Israel protests in London, waving their Israeli flags, would you also criticise that for not being a "neutral march"? I doubt that the majority of the protesters want the destruction of either country, and are instead advocating for peace in Israel and Palestine - but you think otherwise, because they aren't waving the flags of both countries in their marches.

So you have seen a few stories of Palestinian protesters doing hideous acts and immediately associate it with the rest of them. Isn't that slightly naive? That's like reading the incident of that Brighton fan headbutting another in Marseille, and thinking that all other Brighton fans must be doing the same, even though we know that isn't the case.

I must repeat my question as you previously ignored it: do you think that the Palestinian protests are 'hate marches'? This should be answered with yes or no.

I know you were not addressing me, but for what it is worth, I don't think they are hate marches, as i am sure that most are well meaning -the good folk in the next road go down to town each Saturday with their Palestine flags and are genuinely appalled at what is going on, though have also decided that only one party is to blame. But it also has to be said that, as is so often the case with large-scale demos, a significant minority is there to cause problems.

 

[Questions]

I see there is a feeling of unease amongst the Labour Party as to the amount of innocent people dying in a Gaza.
That’s good.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Is there an issue with the marches wanting to bring peace for the Palestinians? I've seen pro-Israel protests in London, waving their Israeli flags, would you also criticise that for not being a "neutral march"? I doubt that the majority of the protesters want the destruction of either country, and are instead advocating for peace in Israel and Palestine - but you think otherwise, because they aren't waving the flags of both countries in their marches.

So you have seen a few stories of Palestinian protesters doing hideous acts and immediately associate it with the rest of them. Isn't that slightly naive? That's like reading the incident of that Brighton fan headbutting another in Marseille, and thinking that all other Brighton fans must be doing the same, even though we know that isn't the case.

I must repeat my question as you previously ignored it: do you think that the Palestinian protests are 'hate marches'? This should be answered with yes or no.

I would like to see them trying to bring peace to the area full stop.

The fact they are predominantly (only) carrying Palestinian flags only continues the polarisation of the problem - us and them (Jews and Palestinians or vice versa) and all the time that is the dialogue then you will get no solution to the problem and you will continue to get violence and hate at marches at the extremes.

As to the amount of violence , then its difficult to say because as you and I know media will focus on the extremes but I will go back to my point polarisation is no good for anyone if you want to solve the problem. Do you think peace will come about by siding for one side?

That question can't be answered yes or no because quite clearly it is has both elements , if you asked the question are they predominantly hate marches then the answer is clearly no but anyone singing 'from the river to the sea' is explicitly supporting hate because the song as come to mean one thing despite other people trying to dress it up as something else.

I reiterate if you want peace in the middle east you don't support one or the other you support peace.

Your analogy is poor, I attend a lot of matches home and away I have a reasonable view of what goes on so know that the Marseille incident does nor reflect the vast majority of Brighton fans . I have no live, in situ experience of marches do you?

 

[Wardy's twin]

Your answer - so simple isn't it. You ask hamas, possibly via an intermediary, for the return of the hostages, they obligingly agree and let you know who they are, so you can eliminate them. Then you tip toe through Gaza, shooting any terrorist, avoiding those used as shields and any damage to property. Job done.

If it were simple then we wouldn't be talking about it.

Israel wants its people back , so thy have to negotiate and that's been happening but bombing the hell out of the place won't get them back and gives an excuse for Hamas to kill the ones they want to (soldiers).

Israel wants retribution , killing babies doesn't give them that ( I hope).

The current alternative solution has turned a lot of people & countries against Israel.

 

[Zeberdi]

Big pro- Israel march in the US today while situation at the Al Shifa Hospital is absolutely dire

Israel-Hamas war live updates: Gaza's Al-Shifa hospital digging a mass grave to bury dead, its director says

Follow NBC News' coverage for live updates about the Israel-Hamas war: Al-Shifa hospital in Gaza says it's digging a mass grave to bury the dead.

www.nbcnews.com

Hundreds trapped in the A-Shifa hospital and the UK thinking of getting aid in via maritime and air channels :

Israel-Hamas war live: fighting traps hundreds in Gaza’s largest hospital; UK considering options to get aid into Gaza | Israel-Hamas war | The Guardian

Patients and medics in ‘desperate situation’ at al-Shifa; UK considering ‘air and maritime options’ to deliver aid

amp.theguardian.com

Report from Al Jazeera today saying what most of us have known since 9 October - bombing Gaza won’t bring victory:

Bombing Gaza won’t bring Israel victory

One only needs to look at the US carpet bombing of Cambodia.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[rippleman]

I see there is a feeling of unease amongst the Labour Party as to the amount of innocent people dying in a Gaza.
That’s good.

It is a shame that the unease is not being shared amongst the leadership of the Labour Party.

On R4 this morning Rachel Reeves was asked the same question that I asked Sir Starmer by email. It was basically "when is the right time to call for a ceasefire? When 20K have died or 50K?". She refused to give an answer and we moved on to why the majority of the content of her latest book had been lifted straight from Wiki. We didn't really get an answer to that either.

I do not trust the current leadership of the Labour Party. You aren't going to get a straight, honest answewr from them than you are from Sunak and his cronies.

 

[rippleman]

I would like to see them trying to bring peace to the area full stop.

The fact they are predominantly (only) carrying Palestinian flags only continues the polarisation of the problem - us and them (Jews and Palestinians or vice versa) and all the time that is the dialogue then you will get no solution to the problem and you will continue to get violence and hate at marches at the extremes.

As to the amount of violence , then its difficult to say because as you and I know media will focus on the extremes but I will go back to my point polarisation is no good for anyone if you want to solve the problem. Do you think peace will come about by siding for one side?

That question can't be answered yes or no because quite clearly it is has both elements , if you asked the question are they predominantly hate marches then the answer is clearly no but anyone singing 'from the river to the sea' is explicitly supporting hate because the song as come to mean one thing despite other people trying to dress it up as something else.

I reiterate if you want peace in the middle east you don't support one or the other you support peace.

Your analogy is poor, I attend a lot of matches home and away I have a reasonable view of what goes on so know that the Marseille incident does nor reflect the vast majority of Brighton fans . I have no live, in situ experience of marches do you?

I was at the cenotaph in Brighton on Sunday. Not a Palestinian flag in sight. Unfortunately, it was a pro-Israeli supporter who brought the only flag (other than those that should be flown at a Remembrance service). But as they say "there's always one".

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

Reports people attempting to leave hospital shot in legs​

The BBC's Rushdi Abualouf has heard that no people, or any items of aid, have been allowed out of the Al-Shifa hospital for the last 48 hours, according to one of his contacts.
That source - one of the few remaining journalists in the hospital - says four people had tried to leave Al-Shifa yesterday, but were shot in the legs and left on the ground bleeding for around two hours.
Medics had to risk their lives to get them into the hospital for treatment, the source tells Abualouf.
The BBC has been unable to access the hospital to verify this as fighting has been raging in the vicinity in recent days.

Israel if the reports are true committing war crimes akin with the Nazis.

 

[beorhthelm]

Reports people attempting to leave hospital shot in legs​

The BBC's Rushdi Abualouf has heard that no people, or any items of aid, have been allowed out of the Al-Shifa hospital for the last 48 hours, according to one of his contacts.
That source - one of the few remaining journalists in the hospital - says four people had tried to leave Al-Shifa yesterday, but were shot in the legs and left on the ground bleeding for around two hours.
Medics had to risk their lives to get them into the hospital for treatment, the source tells Abualouf.
The BBC has been unable to access the hospital to verify this as fighting has been raging in the vicinity in recent days.

Israel if the reports are true committing war crimes akin with the Nazis.

not sure BBC should be reporting unverified stories. it's what used to set them and a few others apart from the tabloids. we know both sides lie through their teeth in this conflict, so we need credible news sources to be curating reports properly.

 

[Zeberdi]

not sure BBC should be reporting unverified stories. it's what used to set them and a few others apart from the tabloids. we know both sides lie through their teeth in this conflict, so we need credible news sources to be curating reports properly.

How are any BBC stories verified other than BBC journalists on the ground in Gaza?

People being shot as they move around the compound of the Al-Shifa hospital has been reported for several days by a number of news agencies

‘We are minutes away from death’: Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital under attack

Palestinian health officials say babies in incubators are fighting for their lives as Israel lays siege to the compound.

www.aljazeera.com

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231111-israeli-army-shoots-whoever-tries-to-leave-al-shifa-hospital-doctor-tells-anadolu/amp/

 

[Psychobilly freakout]

not sure BBC should be reporting unverified stories. it's what used to set them and a few others apart from the tabloids. we know both sides lie through their teeth in this conflict, so we need credible news sources to be curating reports properly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67400490

BBC website, sorry.

 

[Zeberdi]

not sure BBC should be reporting unverified stories. it's what used to set them and a few others apart from the tabloids. we know both sides lie through their teeth in this conflict, so we need credible news sources to be curating reports properly.

Also I posted this story yesterday days from the Medicine Sans Frontieres website and who the BBC is getting the information from - it is their doctors that are witnessing people being shot as they leave the hospital

“Yesterday, Al-Shifa hospital lost electrical power. The ambulances can no longer move to collect the injured, and non-stop bombardment prevents patients and staff from evacuating. At the time of writing, our staff are witnessing people being shot at as they attempt to flee the hospital. “

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind the BBC reports and the MSF reports are true - independent journalists, ie including those working for Western MSM such as the BBC are literally risking their lives trying to get news out of Gaza despite Israel’s attempts to black it out by cutting off communications.

Israel/Palestine war: 41 journalists, more than one a day, killed in first month of Israel-Palestine war

A total of 41 journalists have so far been killed in the Israel-Palestine war which began on 7 October. 36 among them are Palestinian reporters killed by Israeli strikes in the Gaza Strip. Reporters Without Borders (RSF) calls for the protection of those still there.

rsf.org

 

[Bakero]

however does trigger a burning question, or observation, why do the unions and left find so much time for the Palestinian cause? of all the causes around the world, this one has so much attention over decades.

The short answer would be that it's due to our cultural, political, historical, and economic links to Israel. There's also the fact that other causes have come and gone but the Palestine question has persisted.

 

[Zeberdi]

cant stand even seconds of Piers and his constant interruptions to find out.

however does trigger a burning question, or observation, why do the unions and left find so much time for the Palestinian cause? of all the causes around the world, this one has so much attention over decades.

Just to add to Bakero’s points - The long answer

This 70 year old conflict is in the news because of the War and that’s why it seems the Palestinian cause has attracted more support from unions in the UK than anything else but this is actually not the case - you are probably just more aware of it - However, unions have given support to other conflicts around the world - Unions (regardless of the Country) have always traditionally played a significant role in fighting for civil rights (particularly in the labour force), and defending the collective interests in society globally - a major theme running through trade unionism is solidarity with other trade unions and anywhere where workers rights and civil rights are absent/threatened, unions tend to reach out to other unions - Unions globally have been instrumental in fighting against dictatorship and oppression- In the 1980s I was supporting the Nicaraguan people through my membership with Unison (that campaign was huge in Brighton)

https://nicaraguasc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Nicaragua-Now-10.pdf

In the 1990, I visited Krakow (where my Grandfather was born), just 7 months after the Berlin Wall came down and met with Polish university students and union leaders who had been campaigning with the Solidarity union headed by Lech Welesa and fighting Communism and it was amazing to see massive Solidarity banners and posters every where) - Solidarity changed the landscape of world politics and became the first Communist Bloc Country with free elections which led it to become the first non-communist country in the Soviet bloc . It was trade unionists who mobilised the workforce in Egypt in 2011 that were instrumental in bringing down over 30 years of authoritarian regime under President Mabarak and again 2011 Palestinian TUs appealing for global solidarity to unions worldwide in their fight against Israeli Occupation and apartheid policies to which UK unionists (TUC) affiliated support:

Trade union solidarity

Palestinian workers often bear the brunt of Israel’s efforts to undermine the Palestinian economy and its regime of settler colonialism and apartheid. Palestinian trade unions have always played a key role in the Palestinian struggle for freedom, justice and equality. In 2011, Palestinian trade...

bdsmovement.net

Of course the ‘Left’ is traditionally anti-war and pro-unionism/labour movements so traditionally aligned with the same objectives as unions and why the left now is struggling far more than the right to position itself in a comfortable place over the continued bombardment of Gaza. Margaret Thatcher’s animosity towards unions btw was only superseded by her hatred of Communism and she supported Solidarity‘s efforts to mobilise against Poland’s Communist leadership (pragmatist that she was!)

Around the world, the left is tearing itself apart over Israel

The Gaza-Israel war has upended left-wing politics far beyond the Middle East. With elections looming, the price could be high.

www.politico.eu

Poland: Solidarity -- The Trade Union That Changed The World

Twenty-five years ago next Wednesday -- 31 August 1980 -- unemployed Polish electrician Lech Walesa struck a major blow to Soviet communism when, after leading a strike at the Lenin Shipyard in Gdansk, he announced the official birth of the Solidarity independent trade union. Solidarity went on...

www.rferl.org

 

[Bakero]

Just to add to Bakero’s points - The long answer

This 70 year old conflict is in the news because of the War and that’s why it seems the Palestinian cause has attracted more support from unions in the UK than anything else but this is actually not the case - you are probably just more aware of it - However, unions have given support to other conflicts around the world - Unions (regardless of the Country) have always traditionally played a significant role in fighting for civil rights (particularly in the labour force), and defending the collective interests in society globally - a major theme running through trade unionism is solidarity with other trade unions and anywhere where workers rights and civil rights are absent/threatened, unions tend to reach out to other unions - Unions globally have been instrumental in fighting against dictatorship and oppression- In the 1980s I was supporting the Nicaraguan people through my membership with Unison (that campaign was huge in Brighton)

https://nicaraguasc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Nicaragua-Now-10.pdf

In the 1990, I visited Krakow (where my Grandfather was born), just 7 months after the Berlin Wall came down and met with Polish university students and union leaders who had been campaigning with the Solidarity union headed by Lech Welesa and fighting Communism and it was amazing to see massive Solidarity banners and posters every where) - Solidarity changed the landscape of world politics and became the first Communist Bloc Country with free elections which led it to become the first non-communist country in the Soviet bloc . It was trade unionists who mobilised the workforce in Egypt in 2011 that were instrumental in bringing down over 30 years of authoritarian regime under President Mabarak and again 2011 Palestinian TUs appealing for global solidarity to unions worldwide in their fight against Israeli Occupation and apartheid policies to which UK unionists affiliated support:

Trade union solidarity

Palestinian workers often bear the brunt of Israel’s efforts to undermine the Palestinian economy and its regime of settler colonialism and apartheid. Palestinian trade unions have always played a key role in the Palestinian struggle for freedom, justice and equality. In 2011, Palestinian trade...

bdsmovement.net

Of course the ‘Left’ is traditionally anti-war and pro-unionism/labour movements so traditionally aligned with the same objectives as unions and why the left now is struggling far more than the right to position itself in a comfortable place over the continued bombardment of Gaza. Margaret Thatcher’s animosity towards unions btw was only superseded by her hatred of Communism and she supported Solidarity‘s efforts to mobilise against Poland’s Communist leadership (pragmatist that she was!)

Around the world, the left is tearing itself apart over Israel

The Gaza-Israel war has upended left-wing politics far beyond the Middle East. With elections looming, the price could be high.

www.politico.eu

Poland: Solidarity -- The Trade Union That Changed The World

Twenty-five years ago next Wednesday -- 31 August 1980 -- unemployed Polish electrician Lech Walesa struck a major blow to Soviet communism when, after leading a strike at the Lenin Shipyard in Gdansk, he announced the official birth of the Solidarity independent trade union. Solidarity went on...

www.rferl.org

If you ever find yourself in Gdansk (and you should, it's a great city), the Solidarity museum is well worth a visit.

 

[Zeberdi]

If you ever find yourself in Gdansk (and you should, it's a great city), the Solidarity museum is well worth a visit.

I would love to go - was planning to before the pandemic but probably health won’t allow me now but still on a bucket list.