GOD: How much do you believe in him?

[DerbyGull]

What i can't understand is how people can watch that programme (the big silence), and i don't know many of you took the time to watch, and STILL say that there isn't 'something' (be it god or something else). These 5 people all found that something, do you all believe that is just their imagination, conscience? Surely it couldn't be that simple. I mean the successful entrepreneur jacked it all in to become a counsellor. What profound experience made him do something so rash. He's normal just like me (although you may not think it) and you.

 

[Triggaaar]

the odds of intelligent life on an Earth-like planet developing may be of the order of 0.01% over a 4-billion year period.

Ok, so 1/10,000. How many planets are earth like? Well, there are a good 100 billion galaxies, with about 100 billion stars in each. That's ten thousand billion billion stars. Little is know about the average number of planets around a star, but as estimate of earth like planets is about 10 billion. So if only 1/10,000 has intelligent life, that's 1 million planets with intelligent life (that's a conservative estimate).

 

[Triggaaar]

What i can't understand is how people can watch that programme (the big silence), and i don't know many of you took the time to watch, and STILL say that there isn't 'something' (be it god or something else). These 5 people all found that something, do you all believe that is just their imagination, conscience? Surely it couldn't be that simple. I mean the successful entrepreneur jacked it all in to become a counsellor. What profound experience made him do something so rash. He's normal just like me (although you may not think it) and you.

You're talking about 6 people. The normal person, as you put it, has beliefs, and is following them. What's the relevants of that? And 5 people found something - this is hardly proof that something exists is it. Arrange for him to come and teach us, I'll go, and when I don't find anything will you preach that it must all be nonsense?

 

[DerbyGull]

You're talking about 6 people. The normal person, as you put it, has beliefs, and is following them. What's the relevants of that? And 5 people found something - this is hardly proof that something exists is it. Arrange for him to come and teach us, I'll go, and when I don't find anything will you preach that it must all be nonsense?

It's obviously unexplainable, you've got to experience it to understand.

It's like the entrepreneur said, it's like doing a skydive or bungee jump: You're shit scared before, but elated after.

 

[magoo]

What i can't understand is how people can watch that programme (the big silence), and i don't know many of you took the time to watch, and STILL say that there isn't 'something' (be it god or something else). These 5 people all found that something, do you all believe that is just their imagination, conscience? Surely it couldn't be that simple. I mean the successful entrepreneur jacked it all in to become a counsellor. What profound experience made him do something so rash. He's normal just like me (although you may not think it) and you.

We've already told you. They were either looking for something, spiritual to start with or had no firm beliefs either way and probably easily lead or weak minded.

I hate to say it but you are starting to confirm my suspicions about most people who believe in Gods, ghosts, tarot cards, astrology, psychic abilities etc, they're all a bit thick

 

[DerbyGull]

We've already told you. They were either looking for something, spiritual to start with or had no firm beliefs either way and probably easily lead or weak minded.

I hate to say it but you are starting to confirm my suspicions about most people who believe in Gods, ghosts, tarot cards, astrology, psychic abilities etc, they're all a bit thick

I just don't think it's that simple mate. None of them were stupid though.

 

[seagullmouse]

I quoted this about 70 pages ago, but its apt again

Religiosity and intelligence

"Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God." [7]

"I'm not saying that believing in God makes you dumber. My hypothesis is that people with a low intelligence are more easily drawn toward religions, which give answers that are certain, while people with a high intelligence are more skeptical,"

 

[Triggaaar]

What i can't understand is how people can watch that programme (the big silence)... and STILL say that there isn't 'something'

It's obviously unexplainable, you've got to experience it to understand.

Make your mind up. You can't understand why we're not convinced, and when we tell you, you say it's obviously unexplainable.

And looking at that program, the first lady believed in god, the second had believed for 36 (of her 40 I think) years. It didn't say about the next lady, although she was 50 and hoped to live for at least 50 more (I'm already doubting her sanity). The guy has looked all over the world for contentment, and it's alluded him, so who cares where he finds it, it's not relevant to whether there is a god or not. And David believes in the sole and that there's more to life than meets the eye.

So, to recap, 70% of the people on this forum are atheists, but there was not one atheist in that group of people who found something, but you think that everyone who saw that program must now believe in something?

 

[birthofanorange]

I will be happy to revise my initial " 50:50 Chance of his existence ", to a " I KNOW he exists for a FACT", should at least 10% of the fans who share my grievance re: the Heritage Stones be prepared to turn up next Tuesday.

 

[Mr Burns]

Blimey, you don't half load your comments.

Let me rephrase what you just put, in a slightly more (to me, at least) neutral way.

What is more simple,
i) the existence of an all-powerful (albeit generally non-visible) god
ii) the thousands (millions?) of low-chance events relating to the formation of a suitable solar system, a suitable planet, the development of carbon-based life on said planet, and the development of 'intelligent' life on the same planet, all occurring

It's not quite as clear-cut as you like to make out.

To put it in perspective - from a quick google I have found Is there anybody out there? - University of East Anglia (UEA) which suggests that the odds of intelligent life on an Earth-like planet developing may be of the order of 0.01% over a 4-billion year period.

But what are the odds of you being here?

This one messes my mind every time I think about it.

Off the tens of thousands of people that lived near your mum and dad, what was the odds of them meeting and conceving you?

Add these odds to odds of the millions of sperm a father produces, what was the odds of your sperm getting to the egg first?

We are already in many tens of millions to one chance that everything fell into place at the right time and you happened to be here, and not just someone like you... but not actully you. What is that as a percentage? 0.000001%??

Now multiply that by 2. Nan and grandad x2. Then multiply that by 4 Great nan and grandad. Then multiply that by 8 Great great nan and grandad, and so on and so on.

The odds of you being here on this earth as a human being, are staggering amounts of million, billions if not trillions to one. As a percentage probably 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000005% !!

So your odds of 0.01% based over billions of years, looks quite good to me.

And also

the existence of an all-powerful (albeit generally non-visible) god

He is ALWAYS non-visible. Don't mix words. When has he ever been visiable. If I drink enough and get pissed enough or stoned enough, I can see all sorts of things, doesn't mean its real. That comment has killed any argumnet you have, unless you can tell us where he's been visible.

The odds of you being here and now, alive on this planet are staggeringly ridiclous.

Please don't waste life trying to please some spirit in the sky, that desert dwellers wrote about 2000 years ago, and have ben discredited ever since.

Live your life and enjoy it. Live it by the rules of the bible if you must, but don't think theres some wonder god and life at the end of it, because if you think that, you will just waste the short life you really have.

 

[Mr Burns]

Make your mind up. You can't understand why we're not convinced, and when we tell you, you say it's obviously unexplainable.

And looking at that program, the first lady believed in god, the second had believed for 36 (of her 40 I think) years. It didn't say about the next lady, although she was 50 and hoped to live for at least 50 more (I'm already doubting her sanity). The guy has looked all over the world for contentment, and it's alluded him, so who cares where he finds it, it's not relevant to whether there is a god or not. And David believes in the sole and that there's more to life than meets the eye.

So, to recap, 70% of the people on this forum are atheists, but there was not one atheist in that group of people who found something, but you think that everyone who saw that program must now believe in something?

I feel another famous DerbyGull question dodge coming up!

 

[Mr Burns]

Ok, so 1/10,000. How many planets are earth like? Well, there are a good 100 billion galaxies, with about 100 billion stars in each. That's ten thousand billion billion stars. Little is know about the average number of planets around a star, but as estimate of earth like planets is about 10 billion. So if only 1/10,000 has intelligent life, that's 1 million planets with intelligent life (that's a conservative estimate).

Yep, and god invented them all! He kept making mistakes with the other billions of planets, but give him his dues, he kept at it! You think he would have grouped us a bit closer together though wouldn't you?

 

[readingstockport]

I quoted this about 70 pages ago, but its apt again

Religiosity and intelligence

"Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God." [7]

"I'm not saying that believing in God makes you dumber. My hypothesis is that people with a low intelligence are more easily drawn toward religions, which give answers that are certain, while people with a high intelligence are more skeptical,"

Ohh, I'm going to disagree with you - slightly. This is not really anything to do with intelligence, it is to do with education imo. In general the better educated a society and it's members are then the less religious they are. That is why religious belief is falling in western nations but still curently rising in 'third' world nations. As education spreads so will relgious belief fall. The taliban do not restrict education to the extent they do for no reason.

And America is not an exception, the majority of Americans are un-educated and insular. Even in the US beleif in god of any flavour falls the higher the education of the person questioned.

 

[DerbyGull]

Make your mind up. You can't understand why we're not convinced, and when we tell you, you say it's obviously unexplainable.

And looking at that program, the first lady believed in god, the second had believed for 36 (of her 40 I think) years. It didn't say about the next lady, although she was 50 and hoped to live for at least 50 more (I'm already doubting her sanity). The guy has looked all over the world for contentment, and it's alluded him, so who cares where he finds it, it's not relevant to whether there is a god or not. And David believes in the sole and that there's more to life than meets the eye.

So, to recap, 70% of the people on this forum are atheists, but there was not one atheist in that group of people who found something, but you think that everyone who saw that program must now believe in something?

The most interesting person was the 56yr old guy who was anti religion anti god etc to begin with and yet a change happened in him.

 

[Triggaaar]

The most interesting person was the 56yr old guy who was anti religion anti god etc to begin with and yet a change happened in him.

He didn't like the way religion encourages some people to do cruel things - did that change? He didn't believe in god, did that change? And even if he did, so what - when one person finds god, does that mean the rest of us should believe?

 

[DerbyGull]

...when one person finds god, does that mean the rest of us should believe?

Nope not at all. But I found it interesting that someone who was so vehemently against the idea the idea of a god, actually ended up having a conversation with Jesus on his walk and completely changed career direction at the age of 56. There is nothing that you could tell me or any other atheist that would dissuade me from believing that that was real.

 

[sten_super]

Sorry, i've been out for the evening so missed all this. The probability stuff is a bit irrelevant for exactly the reasons that people have highlighted- but my point was that to make out that the idea of this planet evolving by chance is "simple" is pretty disingenuous.

Mr Burns, on the "visibility" issue- I've not ever "seen" God (i'm an aetheist like a lot of others on this thread) but I know people that would say that they have "experienced" God, or have seen the result of his work. That's why I said he was not "generally" visible.

I've said it before but I'll say it one more time, I don't really understand why people (particularly atheists) get so het up about this issue. If people want to believe in a god to help them deal with issues in their lives, where's the problem with that? I have little time for people like Dawkins because they are so evangelical about atheism- to me a big part of it is the mindset of being open and questioning, not lecturing and smug.

 

[JamesAndTheGiantHead]

Somewhat irrelevantly, I must confess that I am jealous of people with religion. They believe that when you die you exist as something else, mostly depending on what you've done in this life.

That takes off a lot of pressure, as an atheist, there's a lot on your shoulders to get everything done on the first time of asking.

 

[Triggaaar]

Nope not at all.

But that is what you said:
"What i can't understand is how people can watch that programme (the big silence)... and STILL say that there isn't 'something' (be it god or something else)."
as if seeing the odd person change their mind would mean the rest of us have to.

But I found it interesting that someone who was so vehemently against the idea the idea of a god, actually ended up having a conversation with Jesus on his walk and completely changed career direction at the age of 56.

He wasn't against the idea of god, he was looking for something which was missing in his life (he was against the way religion worked, such as lies and wars etc). I wouldn't draw much conclusion from a rich 56 year old changing career. He's already made his money, he no longer needs a career. If he did find god, that's fine, but not really exciting.

There is nothing that you could tell me or any other atheist that would dissuade me from believing that that was real.

Dissuade you from believing what's not real - that he found what he was looking for? Why would we suggest he wasn't real? That doesn't mean god is real.

The probability stuff is a bit irrelevant for exactly the reasons that people have highlighted- but my point was that to make out that the idea of this planet evolving by chance is "simple" is pretty disingenuous.

Why do you think it's disingenuous? You are an atheist, but you think that the idea that this planet evolving by chance is madness? That doesn't sound like an atheist. If I didn't believe this planet evolved by chance, then I would have to believe in a god like creator. With more than 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe, there's going to be all sorts of weird things out there, yet you think that it's disingenuous for us to believe that planets evolve based on chance and probability? You either need a rethink, or you don't understand chance and probability.

I've said it before but I'll say it one more time, I don't really understand why people (particularly atheists) get so het up about this issue.

It's a very big issue, which covers more than those who quietly belive.

If people want to believe in a god to help them deal with issues in their lives, where's the problem with that?

There's nothing wrong with that, although your wording suggests that people only believe to help them deal with issues, which isn't actually believing at all, it's just following. You can't choose to believe or not, you either do or you don't. You can try to open/close your mind to ideas, which may effect whether you believe or not, but the final decision isn't ours (ie, we can't lie to ourselves, our mind makes its own decisions).

If all belief was beneficial, and no harm was ever done, I guess less of us would debate the issue. But harm is done, and many (a minority, but still many) preach lies to con people into believing what they want them to, and I stand against that.

 

[sten_super]

Why do you think it's disingenuous? You are an atheist, but you think that the idea that this planet evolving by chance is madness? That doesn't sound like an atheist. If I didn't believe this planet evolved by chance, then I would have to believe in a god like creator. With more than 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars in the universe, there's going to be all sorts of weird things out there, yet you think that it's disingenuous for us to believe that planets evolve based on chance and probability? You either need a rethink, or you don't understand chance and probability.

Again, you've misinterpreted what I've written. Nowhere have I said it's madness. What i'm saying is that to present (as Mr Burns did) evolution as a "simple" answer is not true. The whole reason behind the development of religion (imho) was because it provided a "simple" answer to things we weren't able to understand.

And thanks, but my understanding of chance and probability is just fine.

It's a very big issue, which covers more than those who quietly belive.
There's nothing wrong with that, although your wording suggests that people only believe to help them deal with issues, which isn't actually believing at all, it's just following. You can't choose to believe or not, you either do or you don't. You can try to open/close your mind to ideas, which may effect whether you believe or not, but the final decision isn't ours (ie, we can't lie to ourselves, our mind makes its own decisions).

There may not be a clear conscious decision, but I do think that one of the reasons people find religion is because of some kind of need, whether it's an explanation or simply a kind of support network.