GOD: How much do you believe in him?

[teaboy]

Salvation from destruction of your eternal soul.

To put it literally.

Which is where, anatomically-speaking? And why would I care when the rest of me will be happily rotting away in the ground?

 

[Triggaaar]

The crusades were a reaction to the THREAT of islam taking over the holy land of Israel. If Christendom is under attack it's upto Christian countries to help avert the threat.

Oh you are kidding me! The Jews were the first victims of the crusades - it's the Jewish god the Christians were supposedly fighting for. People were tortured and killed across Europe, nothing to do with the holy land at all, just people turned into legalised criminals by the pope.

Hence why he sent JC to SAVE us as we all on the verge of being wiped out.

We weren't on the verge of being whiped out. Most of the world wasn't at war when Christ showed up, and those that were at war used swords - hardly enough to whipe out civilisation.

 

[teaboy]

And yet responsibility for the biggest losses of human life are down to regimes free from religion.

There's ample proof there to suggest a lack of religious beliefs does not make for a fairer or more compasionate society.

Funny how its said that that people without any faith are more enlightened, yet history shows that's a misnomer.

Really? Citations needed for this, I think. Religion played a huge part in the most recent European holocaust.

Don't confuse correlation with causation.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Really? Citations needed for this, I think. Religion played a huge part in the most recent European holocaust.

Don't confuse correlation with causation.

Communist regimes are the biggest killers in the history of mankind. China comes in with a conservative 60-65 million deaths alone.

To put that into context the Crusades death toll estimates are generally between 5- 9 million and that was over a far far longer period of time.

To suggest religion played a major role in WW2 is a total fabrication. That conflict was set in motion when Archduke Franz Ferdinand was asssinated. WW2 was a politcal action.

 

[Acker79]

Really? Citations needed for this, I think. Religion played a huge part in the most recent European holocaust.

Don't confuse correlation with causation.

I have just done a quick google search, and found this:
Are Most Wars the Result of Religious Belief?
and
What About Atrocities That Have Been Done in the Name of Religion

I would highlight this is a site that appears to be in favour of religion, so obviously is going to put a spin on it that would favour their opinion (I suspect a science site would put their spin on things, naturally)

Looking at them it seems obvious that the atheistic wars total more deaths, but closer inspection raises questions, most importantly how are they defining religious wars (I'm sure it must be answered somewhere, maybe in the sources they site). But, for instance, world war two. I think of ww2 and think there are complex factors that caused that. You can't pin it down to one motivating factor. But, you also can't deny that 6 million people died because of their religion. Not their gender, not their jobs, not their nationality, not their political sway, but because they were jewish. They were killed on the instructions of Hitler. They don't appear to be included. (Those deaths were as a result of their religion. So even if Hitler wasn't a christian (he was) they should still be included, imo).

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

I have just done a quick google search, and found this:
Are Most Wars the Result of Religious Belief?
and
What About Atrocities That Have Been Done in the Name of Religion

I would highlight this is a site that appears to be in favour of religion, so obviously is going to put a spin on it that would favour their opinion (I suspect a science site would put their spin on things, naturally)

Looking at them it seems obvious that the atheistic wars total more deaths, but closer inspection raises questions, most importantly how are they defining religious wars (I'm sure it must be answered somewhere, maybe in the sources they site). But, for instance, world war two. I think of ww2 and think there are complex factors that caused that. You can't pin it down to one motivating factor. But, you also can't deny that 6 million people died because of their religion. Not their gender, not their jobs, not their nationality, not their political sway, but because they were jewish. They were killed on the instructions of Hitler. They don't appear to be included. (Those deaths were as a result of their religion. So even if Hitler wasn't a christian (he was) they should still be included, imo).

They didn't die because of their religion, Judaism.

They died because of their ethnic background which of course is Jewish.

Their deaths were more to do with racism than religion. The same reason Gypsies were also masacred by the Nazis.

 

[Acker79]

They didn't die because of their religion, Judaism.

They died because of their ethnic background which of course is Jewish.

Their deaths were more to do with racism than religion. The same reason Gypsies were also masacred by the Nazis.

Which is why I question (not deny, just question) those stats. A christian kills 6 million jews and the technicality card is played and Christians trying to downplay the role of religion in wars say it's an ethnicity thing. A communist dictator kills someone and it's because of his godlessness.*

*Not specifically accusing you of that, but the general debate pattern exists

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Which is why I question (not deny, just question) those stats. A christian kills 6 million jews and the technicality card is played and Christians trying to downplay the role of religion in wars say it's an ethnicity thing. A communist dictator kills someone and it's because of his godlessness.*

*Not specifically accusing you of that, but the general debate pattern exists

I agree with what you've said there mate.

All those stats prove is that with or without religion man will or would have still killed each other enmasse.

Human nature is the reason for this.

 

[beorhthelm]

And yet responsibility for the biggest losses of human life are down to regimes free from religion.

There's ample proof there to suggest a lack of religious beliefs does not make for a fairer or more compasionate society.

nice little Aunt Sally you put up there. though its true atheist governments may have been responsible for alot of life lost, they havent done so *for* atheism. political or racial reasons are the normal background (though this may sometimes be blurred). however, having a tryranical, communist atheist government showing a lack of compasion, is certainly not proof that say a democratic, liberal, athiest government would do so.

To put that into context the Crusades death toll estimates are generally between 5- 9 million and that was over a far far longer period of time.

ah, thats ok then. and to put that in to context, what was the populaiton of Europe and the middle east in the period?

 

[readingstockport]

Oh lord, go and stick your head in a blender you thick idiot!

Yep, except of course I know your fairy tale book better than you do. But that is par for the course I'm afraid. Now carry on, go pray for me because that's what you are supposed to do isn't it?

And while you pray for me I'll do your thinking for you.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

nice little Aunt Sally you put up there. though its true atheist governments may have been responsible for alot of life lost, they havent done so *for* atheism. political or racial reasons are the normal background (though this may sometimes be blurred). however, having a tryranical, communist atheist government showing a lack of compasion, is certainly not proof that say a democratic, liberal, athiest government would do so.

There's no such thing as an Atheist government imo. I think whatever political system they employ will determine their belief system i.e communism

ah, thats ok then. and to put that in to context, what was the populaiton of Europe and the middle east in the period?

Where did I say it was ok?

More pointing out that the perception and opinions put forth that religion is the cause of all the worlds troubles is a falicy.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I agree with what you've said there mate.

All those stats prove is that with or without religion man will or would have still killed each other enmasse.

Human nature is the reason for this.

Yes you're right. Its not only religion that is a force for bad. Greed; Desire; any of the seven deadly sins, whatever. I'm merely pointing out that religion is one of the reasons people go to war and slaughter innocents. lets face it, an Army with God on their side is unbeatable!

I'd like to see situations where religion is a reason people DON'T go to war, that might start to put some ticks in the 'religion' column.

anyway, none of this should be construed as a personal attack on anybody who is religious, its more an attack on dogma and scientific reasoning to disprove God, thats what I'm interested in.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Its interesting that you didn't address this point though.... which is clearly the way that religious leaders get power over their congregation. Is this kind of child abuse justified? telling children they're sinners and so on, must do x and y or they're heading for hell? Hell must be a horrendous nightmarish image to a small child - put enough brimstone in your stories and you could get a child to do anything...

It's all there in the bible mate. Religious leaders are just quoting the bible. It's not there opinions. IT'S THE BIBLES, I.E. GODS!!!! there are splinter cells like westboro baptist church that abuse the bible however and go to extremes.

Mate, I'm not going to drop this one so easily. Its easy to hide behind the bible being God's Word, we're never going to agree there, whatever. But address the issue, is it OK for old men in vicars clothes to threaten children with an eternity in a fiery pit if they don't say their prayers or confess their 'sins'. This would be defined as nothing more than child abuse if you take away the dog collar and the cross.

 

[Tyrone Biggums]

Yes you're right. Its not only religion that is a force for bad. Greed; Desire; any of the seven deadly sins, whatever. I'm merely pointing out that religion is one of the reasons people go to war and slaughter innocents. lets face it, an Army with God on their side is unbeatable!

I'd like to see situations where religion is a reason people DON'T go to war, that might start to put some ticks in the 'religion' column.

anyway, none of this should be construed as a personal attack on anybody who is religious, its more an attack on dogma and scientific reasoning to disprove God, thats what I'm interested in.

Well there would be millions of examples of this. It's not something though a statistic would be available for because it's an individual choice that's not dictated to by a national leader in most cases.

Governments send men to war these days, the days of religious leaders being heads of state are things of the past.

 

[djm21]

Mate, I'm not going to drop this one so easily. Its easy to hide behind the bible being God's Word, we're never going to agree there, whatever. But address the issue, is it OK for old men in vicars clothes to threaten children with an eternity in a fiery pit if they don't say their prayers or confess their 'sins'. This would be defined as nothing more than child abuse if you take away the dog collar and the cross.

Kalimantan, i went to Newman School (a catholic school). none of that went on there. I find it hard to believe this does go on. But if it does then sure, it's wrong. You should have the freedom to choose. It was never forced on me. I'm choosing what to believe at the age of 29. But believers still need to remind (not force it on them) none believers. After that it is upto the non-believer what they do.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Kalimantan, i went to Newman School (a catholic school). none of that went on there. I find it hard to believe this does go on. But if it does then sure, it's wrong. You should have the freedom to choose. It was never forced on me. I'm choosing what to believe at the age of 29. But believers still need to remind (not force it on them) none believers. After that it is upto the non-believer what they do.

alright cheers, I'll give you the last word. As a beleiver in atheism I think I have fulfilled my duty to remind non-believers that there is no God

take care and enjoy the game on Saturday

 

[bhaexpress]

Kalimantan, i went to Newman School (a catholic school). none of that went on there. I find it hard to believe this does go on. But if it does then sure, it's wrong. You should have the freedom to choose. It was never forced on me. I'm choosing what to believe at the age of 29. But believers still need to remind (not force it on them) none believers. After that it is upto the non-believer what they do.

Funny that, I went to a Catholic Primary school (which is thankfully no longer there). It was staffed by nuns who mainly pig ignorant Irish women who though sparing the rod would spoil any child. If they were to have tried their sadistic punishments today they would be doing sereval years behind bars. Brides of Christ ? Whores of Christ more like. The sad thing is that is the way they were brought up and they knew no better. However they also scared many children witless with some of the things they told their pupils, one that springs to my mind was telling kids that if their parents divorced they (the children) would go to hell. We are talking the 1960s here and I know that this sort of thing goes on in other countries in the present day.

 

[bhaexpress]

Well there would be millions of examples of this. It's not something though a statistic would be available for because it's an individual choice that's not dictated to by a national leader in most cases.

Governments send men to war these days, the days of religious leaders being heads of state are things of the past.

Tell that to the Taliban for a start.

 

[djm21]

...take care and enjoy the game on Saturday

Amen to that!

 

[MattBackHome]

Tell that to the Taliban for a start.

Exactly. Then go and speak to Al-Shabaab in Somalia, and see if they're at all religious.