GOD: How much do you believe in him?

[Tyrone Biggums]

This is not a sign that violence has increased - it is a sign that how violence is reported has changed, paired with your personal thoughts on seeing an old person. I'm willing to bet money that instances of random violence on innocents hasn't increased per capita at all in the last 30 years. Any numbers to back up your statement?

Crime statistics from here.

Mr Baillieu said research had shown that violence against senior Victorians was increasing faster than for any other age group in the state.

The increase in assaults for people over 60 was a 99.3 per cent rise, compared with a total statewide increase of 56.4 per cent for all age groups during the same period.

While people over 60 make up 3.02 per cent of crime victims, up from 2.96 per cent eight years ago, the number of crimes being perpetrated against the elderly was rising.

The number of sexual assaults against elderly people rose to 41, while assaults rose alarmingly from 442 in 1999 to 881 assaults last year(2007).

But this isn't even close to what you said. You said you would sacrifice all of modern medicine in exchange for eliminating all weapons. If you're talking about helping those in Africa (for example) it brings us full circle - surely improving technology (for example cheap medicines, or even just 'well technology') will improve their lives, which runs completely counter to your argument that science has made the world a worse place?

It's not just Africa, it's Asia, its South America, the Middle East.

Your idea is fine in principle, except you didn't factor in one vital component. Humans. It's in our nature to fight and go to wars.

As the world population gets bigger and resources dwindle, land and food become even more scarce there's always possibilities for more wars on the horizon.

 

[DTES]

Crime statistics from here.

Clever. You don't actually link to where those came from (so I've had to find them myself), and then you cherry pick from the source (probably because you didn't think I'd find it?) If anyone else cares, here's the link: http://www.newnation.co/forums/archive/index.php/t-110210.html

...and here's a few other quotes from the same source:

the number of robberies committed against those over 60 has fallen dramatically.
The increases come as Victoria's population ages.
However, as a proportion of victims we have not seen a change in those aged over 60

In short, some crimes have gone up, but not all - and those that have gone up have gone up because there are more old people!

As I said in my previous post - there is no reason to suggest crimes have gone up per capita - unless you can find some...

It's not just Africa, it's Asia, its South America, the Middle East. Your idea is fine in principle, except you didn't factor in one vital component. Humans. It's in our nature to fight and go to wars. As the world population gets bigger and resources dwindle, land and food become even more scarce there's always possibilities for more wars on the horizon.

I used Africa as an example because you did, not for any other reason. Anyway, my point - for any of the above places - is that science brings more benefits than dangers. Just medicine alone outweighs the harms - but I guess you disagree... so I'm not sure where we can go with this point...

 

[thejackal]

Yes, granted they aren't of the scale of GSK. Apologies.

The point I was intending to make still stands - the suggestion that all the money is directed to 'put down' alternative treatments (or however you want to word it) is utter nonsense.

Boiron's marketing to R&D spend being 20:1 is utter, utter madness though. Even I didn't realise it was that big.

I do object to the word "tiny" though. $520m per year, and "there's no money in alternative medicines"? Rubbish. This is not a question of money.

Fair enough, although in my defence I described Boiron as 'tiny' as compared to GSK, and at almost 65 times the size I think you could easily argue that point.

That said, I know from working in the US, and from my many pharma contacts over there that the main driving force of the industry, as with any other industry, is money. If you have ever worked even loosely with these companies then to believe anything else is foolish and naive and, well, downright impossible. It's ALL about the money!

Also, the US pharma industry spends huge sums of money lobbying lawmakers in the US - almost a BILLION dollars collectively between 1998 and 2005 - so to suggest that they don't spend vast sums of money ensuring that they continue to make huge profits is, again, a little naive, in my opinion.

These companies spend millions anually in the courts protecting the intellectual copyright of their various medicines, and you could argue that they have every right to do that, but they do so at the expense of poor countries' ability to produce cheap generics.

 

[HovaGirl]

I would dispute that for many children brought up in a religious household, believing is not really a choice and tantamount to child abuse in my view.

That's a truly appalling thing to say. It reveals you know nothing about either child abuse or religious faith.

 

[HovaGirl]

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that. Are you blaming science for wars, influenza epidemics, the black death ? Apart from a test tube blowing up in your face, how can science kill anyone exactly ?

Abortion. Euthanasia. The invention of guns, cannons, swords and other weapons. The abuse of drugs. Everything that has been invented, has been abused at some point by somebody with ill-intent.

 

[DTES]

Fair enough, although in my defence I described Boiron as 'tiny' as compared to GSK, and at almost 65 times the size I think you could easily argue that point.

That said, I know from working in the US, and from my many pharma contacts over there that the main driving force of the industry, as with any other industry, is money. If you have ever worked even loosely with these companies then to believe anything else is foolish and naive and, well, downright impossible. It's ALL about the money!

Also, the US pharma industry spends huge sums of money lobbying lawmakers in the US - almost a BILLION dollars collectively between 1998 and 2005 - so to suggest that they don't spend vast sums of money ensuring that they continue to make huge profits is, again, a little naive, in my opinion.

These companies spend millions anually in the courts protecting the intellectual copyright of their various medicines, and you could argue that they have every right to do that, but they do so at the expense of poor countries' ability to produce cheap generics.

Agreed. I'm not going to argue with the point that those companies are out to make a profit. Of course they are - sorry, I should have worded it better.

My point is that not all such companies are anti-herbal 'medicine'; that there are other companies out there - maybe not quite the same scale, but with even just one of them having a turnover of €520m they are pretty big! - that are investing in herbal medicines. They are, of course, out to make profits too.

Put simply, the money is there such that if there was proof for those herbal 'medicines' that worked, proof would have been found. And examples of these exist (e.g. aspirin as earlier). Those that haven't yet been proved probably don't work, and shouldn't be treated as if they do until proven differently.

 

[DTES]

That's a truly appalling thing to say. It reveals you know nothing about either child abuse or religious faith.

I think your post reveals you have a very narrow definition of "child abuse". Nobody is suggesting that the parents have any intention of abusing their child, just that the child's right to freely choose their religion is far more important than the parents' "right" to choose it for them.

Abortion. Euthanasia. The invention of guns, cannons, swords and other weapons. The abuse of drugs. Everything that has been invented, has been abused at some point by somebody with ill-intent.

You can add "religion" to that list and it would still be a perfectly valid one

 

[Tricky Dicky]

That's a truly appalling thing to say. It reveals you know nothing about either child abuse or religious faith.

I would say it's absolutely accurate - but is not necessarily equivalent to other forms of abuse.

Abortion. Euthanasia. The invention of guns, cannons, swords and other weapons. The abuse of drugs. Everything that has been invented, has been abused at some point by somebody with ill-intent.

What have those things got to do with science ? If you want to go to that level, everything is made up of atoms and molecules so it therefore science.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.

— Stephen Weinberg

 

[Bold Seagull]

This quote perhaps explains why 163 people know for a fact that God either exists or doesn't:

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent full of doubt.

— Bertrand Russell

 

[Acker79]

This quote perhaps explains why 163 people know for a fact that God either exists or doesn't:

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent full of doubt.

— Bertrand Russell

Or perhaps this one does:

This is NSC. Most of us understand that here on NSC "Fact!" doesn't mean the same thing as 'fact' does outside of this messageboard. Some of us voted with this in mind.

 

[bhaexpress]

The problem with religion and children is the fact that they are indoctrinated and it destroys their ability to consider belief rationally. I can remember the scare stories that some of my Catholic teachers (Nuns, Priest and Laypersons) which merely served to inflict their beliefs. Is that child abuse ? Well look around the World an the countries that are vastly over populated thanks to the influence of the Catholic Church. You can factor in all the other medieval customs inflicted on people by any religion through dogma and opression.

Now that's abuse.

 

[Albumen]

This quote perhaps explains why 163 people know for a fact that God either exists or doesn't:

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent full of doubt.

— Bertrand Russell

Is this the same Russell that said this:

"My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race."

 

[DerbyGull]

A bit long, but this pretty much sums up what is going on. All you god haters/mockers please read THIS, then feel free to shoot me down.

We live in a world that rejects God, Biblical Truth, and Christ!



"… this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:" (Isaiah 30:9).

We live in a world where the majority of the people reject the God of the Bible, thoroughly reject Biblical Truth, and live their lives without Christ in their hearts. Moreover, they don’t want anything to do with God because they love their sin. That is why the Bible calls us a "peculiar people," and to most of the world we are extremely peculiar and in many cases hated because of our faith in Christ. They hate us because we make them uncomfortable and remind them of their sin. They don’t want to face, think about or deal with the reality of their lives and life after death. They think that if they ignore it or deny the truth that somehow they can escape it and get by with their sin. Most people in this world have made the conscious choice to live their lives apart from Christ and in rebellion to the Truth of His Word, and those who embrace the Lord and His Truth are seen as the enemy.

Those who choose to live in rebellion to God and His Word are always on the offensive, marketing their rebellion to the masses, finding great comfort and strength in others who have also chosen to live their lives in rebellion to God. They only love those who are like them, in the same rebellion they are in. It is like drunks in a bar. Someone once said that drunks love company. Wrong! Drunks love drunken company, others who are just like them.

These unbelievers are loud, bold, aggressive, and use all of the modern tools of communication to reach the masses 24/7 with their lies and deceptions. They believe that by fighting the truth and denying it, they can escape it and they can be free to live their lives of sin without rebuke. Because we have the better percentage of two full generations out there who have never been to church, and who have no foundation of Biblical faith in their life, these lost masses have become easy prey for these tools of Satan who propagate a lifestyle of rebellion to God, rejecting Christ's love and the Absolute Truth of the Bible. The lies of the rebels make their flesh feel good and tell them they are alright just like they are and that they can live as they please and there is no one who will stop them or judge them for it.

The very first thing that those who choose to live a life of rebellion MUST do, is minimize and try to discredit God's Word. You see the Bible is God's inspired, inerrant Word, representing Absolute Truth, and is our final authority in all matters. Anyone who doesn’t believe that is NOT a true believer, whether or not they go to church, profess to be a Christian or not. The Bible is the very book that condemns them for their rebellion against God’s commandments! That is why you will always hear those who have chosen to live in rebellion to God endlessly mocking and trying to castigate the Bible and calling it fiction, fairy tales, made up by men and more. The fact is, the Bible was written by God Himself, through the pens of men who were operating under His Divine inspiration. It is 100% accurate in ALL matters of life. Those who deny it will always attack it, but in the end, God's Word will still be standing. The truth is the truth, whether or not you accept it, believe it or live by it. It remains truth no matter what is said about it or thought about it. Truth is absolute and eternal, just like God is for He and His Word are one and Jesus is the Word made flesh so we could see a demonstration of the Word and the Love of God lived out in our world.

The biggest problem we have in our world today is not those who choose to live in rebellion to God and His Word; it is those who know Christ as their Savior who do not live the life and stand up for what they profess to believe! While the haters of God without shame stand in the public square declaring their false beliefs, we, the people who know the Lord have chosen to hide behind the four walls of our churches and in the comfortable Christian subculture we have created to separate and isolate ourselves from the non-believing world. Excuse me, but I must have missed something in the Bible. God never said to isolate yourself from the world, but to be the "salt and light" of the world. How can you be a light to the world when you are hiding your light under a bushel (within the four walls of church or on “Christian TV”?

The reason the enemies of God have such a loud voice in the world is because they are speaking for the most part unopposed! Nobody is standing next to them declaring the Truth of God and exposing them for the liars they are. What this all really boils down to is a battle for the souls of men and we are supposed to be ambassadors for Christ in this world. Satan comes to kill, steal, and destroy, while Jesus came to give life and life more abundantly, but most of the world doesn’t know that and has never heard that. Sadly those who serve Satan are more passionate about serving him, than those who serve the Lord are about serving Him! God’s people are lukewarm or just plain uncaring about a lost world going to hell and the unbelievers are doing everything in their power to take others to hell with them, to force others to believe and follow their evil ways that lead to damnation.

It is time for every man, woman, and child who knows Jesus Christ in the pardon of their sins to start taking a stand for righteousness and not allow the spokesmen of Satan to go unopposed. Don't be fooled. They are NOT nice people, they are NOT your friends, they are NOT your buddies, they are deadly serious in taking as many people to hell with them as they can. Are you as serious about taking others to heaven with you?

When you stand up for truth, you will be made to fell like you are facing a stacked deck in every sense of the word, all against you. But never forget, YOU AND GOD ARE ALWAYS A MAJORITY! He said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you” and “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.” So never feel alone, or intimidated when you are with a group of non-believers. Many so called Christians will end up being swayed by the majority so that they don’t appear "offensive" because they want to go along and get along. They would rather compromise and go along with the crowd headed for hell than stand for Jesus, forgetting that Jesus said; “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.” If you will not stand up for Jesus when it counts, then neither will He stand up for you when it counts. Stop accepting or letting others say that they can make it because they are good, or do good works or are not like the bad sinners or whatever because the Bible declares there are NONE that are "good" and all sin God sees and will judge one day. At some point, everyone has to eventually decide what they will believe and who they will follow. God has designed it that way. No one will be in hell that really wanted heaven and Jesus and no one will be in heaven that didn’t want to be there enough to follow Jesus and obey Him. You either follow God or you deny Him, there is no middle ground.

The bottom line is that either you believe the Bible represents Absolute Truth or you don't, and if you don't, that means it is now up to you and each person to determine what Truth is for yourself, making yourself God. Of course, for those who deny the Truth of Gods' Word, will immediately go into attacking the validity of the Bible since again, it is the very Word that defines their choice as sin and condemns them for their sin. “For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved” (John 3:20).

When you stand for the truth know that the wicked will say that you are "full of hate" and "intolerant" because you call their sin, sin and tell them God will not accept it or them unless they repent of their sin. They will tell you that God is a God of "love" and He doesn’t judge and condemn men, making God’s love a cheesy meaningless love. They don’t understand that true love warns and protects the object of love, true love will correct one who goes astray, as a parent who loves a child will do everything to protect the child from running into the street or sticking a clothes hanger into an electric outlet. That is also love, but a part of it they reject as love when it has to do with God. Instead of dealing with the real issues and reality, they will just make endless personal attacks and you will be able to literally see satan manifesting in the faces, body language, and speech as they rant and rave against the truth and you for speaking the truth. Doesn't the Word talk about being persecuted for Christ, and to count it joy when you are? But today the church doesn’t want to be persecuted for Christ but to be popular and accepted by the world more than they want to be accepted by God. Who are you trying to please, God or the world?

This is the typical ploy of those who reject God's Truth. They use shrill mindless empty rhetoric in an attempt to silence those who believe the Bible. To not accept their life of sin and agree with their rejection of truth means that you are full of hatred and a religious bigot. Yes, God is a God of love, but He is also a God of JUDGMENT and won't be mocked! Those who oppose Christ are experts at trying to demonize people of Faith by trying to bully them into being silent so that they can share their false message unopposed. Sadly, for the most part it has worked and the church is hiding from them and so most of our young people today have only heard their message of lies and deceits.

People of Faith don't have the stomach to stand up to these bullies and usually back down, leaving them to propagate their lies to the masses unopposed. But the only way God doesn't win is when you don't put Him in the game. No, that doesn’t mean that all men will accept the truth, but then God never said they would, only that they truth will cause them to have to make a choice for or against the truth, knowing what they are doing and so then they will have no covering for their sin. The difference is that the will die in and for their sin, but you will be free of their blood and it will not be upon your hands. But if you don’t warn the wicked, God said he will still die and be judged for his sin, but his blood will be upon your hands for not warning the sinner. All of the abusive language, the name-calling, the mocking, can't put one dent in the Truth, doesn't mean for a second that God doesn't exist, and never changes the fact that each person will die one day and at that moment the only thing that will matter is do you know Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior!

There are masses of hurting people, dying and going to hell every day and we have got to reach them. The agents of Satan are bold and relentless in bringing their lies to people and putting them into bondage that will end up destroying their lives and leading them to the depths of hell. That is why we must be dedicated and passionate about reaching those same masses each day with God's Truth and the hope and love of Christ.

My word to you today is to BE BOLD in Christ. If you will stand for the truth, God will give you boldness, and He will give you courage. Why should the servants of Satan be so bold with a lie, and we who posses the Absolute Truth of God's Word be so passive with the Truth we have been given and entrusted with? Remember, it is not YOU they are rejecting, it is Christ, so don’t take it personally. When the lost attack you, they are simply being used as instruments of unrighteousness and it is not you they were attacking, but Jesus in you, whom you are representing. Our job is to simply share the Truth, what those who hear that Truth do with it is up to them. It is then their responsibility, not ours. Our responsibility is to tell them the truth.

So fear not, when it comes to those in your family, those you go to school with, those you work with, those you meet in the course of your life who have chosen to deny the Truth and reject Christ. Stand up to them with the Word of God, knowing that in the end His Truth will still be standing when nothing else is. God never told you to hide the light within you, but to let your light shine for the world to see. God puts people in your life every day who are hurting, lost, and needing His love. Don't neglect the opportunity to share that love with them as God gives you the opportunity. The fact is the world is sharing its lies with them 24/7, you may be the only person they come across this day who will give them the words of life!

Now more than ever the men and women of God have got to stand up and be heard. If those who serve Satan can do it, why can't we? The lost masses are out there, looking for answers. Satan is out there 24/7 giving them answers that will lead them to eternal damnation. It is our job as those who know the Lord, know His Truth, to bring those masses the ONLY answer there is to life...Jesus Christ!

We live in a world that rejects God, Biblical Truth, and Christ!

 

[The Sock of Poskett]

Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.

— Stephen Weinberg

Wildly optimistic. Without religion you would still have imperfect human beings getting things wrong, not just 'evil people doing evil' and 'good people doing good'. If we're honest, we're all a mixture of both.

 

[Mr Burns]

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.”

The Popes completely f***ed than aint he!

 

[Tricky Dicky]

A bit long, but this pretty much sums up what is going on. All you god haters/mockers please read THIS, then feel free to shoot me down.


We live in a world where the majority of the people reject the God of the Bible, thoroughly reject Biblical Truth, and live their lives without Christ in their hearts. Moreover, they don’t want anything to do with God because they love their sin.

I only had to read one sentence to know that was complete and utter rubbish. My disbelief is nothing to do with sin (whatever that is supposed to mean), it's based on my belief that absolutely nothing in my 48 years is attractive or real about religion, and I just cannot understand why anybody would want to beleive.

 

[DTES]

A bit long, but this pretty much sums up what is going on. All you god haters/mockers please read THIS, then feel free to shoot me down.

If you insist...

1) This offers no evidence whatsoever as to whether or not your god exists.

2) It's complete nonsense. For thousands of years non-believers have been oppressed, and banned (even on punishment of death in the past) from speaking their mind. Yet it is the non-believers who force their ideas on others?

3) On what basis does the author claim that all non-believers are "on the offensive" etc? Do you not accept the existence of just as many, if not more, atheists who are happy in their belief that there is no god, but keep it to themselves? That's a bit naive...

4) The idea that not having faith in your got will result in people "destroying their lives"? You (or the author) are saying that my life is destroyed? How dare you!

Shall I go on?

 

[lost in london]

Derby Gull - if that's your case, then I don't even know where to begin.

Two points though:

1. I don't hate people who believe, in fact sometimes I feel a little bit jealous of faith. My rational mind doesn't let me believe, but peope who do and who don't take it too far are often very happy, content people.

2. The bible is not 100% accurate in all matters in life, it's a nice pointer, in parts, on how to live a better life.

 

[HovaGirl]

Less respect for the elderly? 100 years ago, life expectancy was 50. There weren't very many elderly to have respect for! What a bizarre comparison. (Besides, I have perfectly sufficient respect for the elderly, thank you very much - as do most people I know).

One of the problems with statistics, is it skews the truth. Because so many babies died at birth, and because so many children died before the age of five, and because so many adults died of diseases which are curable today, this skews the statistic as to the average age at death. The truth is, man has always had the capacity to live to age 100 and more. The 1841 census (of England and Wales) shows more than 1,000,000 people aged 60 or more, almost 90,000 of them being aged more than 80 and more than 400 of them being aged more than 90. There were also more than 200,000 babies under one year old and nearly 300,000 55-year-olds. (Population: 26,854,969)