Full national lockdown (not education) 4/11 - 1/12 possible

[Driver8]

Won’t work unless schools and universities shut as well.

I’m not sure sending loads of COVID infected uni students home is a good idea at the moment. The universities should never have reopened but it’s too late now.

 

[Weststander]

I cannot see this having any chance of working. Firstly, if education remains open there will continue to be tens of millions of potential routes of transmission. Secondly, if it’s all to ‘save Christmas’, then any progress that is made will be quickly wiped out in December anyway. This is nothing more than a selfish political move from Johnson to cling on to his job as he knows the first sign of a hospital going under is him finished.

Under their new lockdowns, schools have remained open in France and Germany.

In France for example, they consider that psychological and educational benefits of children going to school outweigh the CV19 risks:

“The government has repeatedly stressed that the economic and psychological impact of the two months of near-total confinement in the spring was too heavy for such measures to be re-introduced.

While some epidemiologists are calling for schools to remain closed after the holidays, teachers argue that the lockdown showed that home schooling simply “didn’t work”.

“We are calling for the maintenance of in-person lessons,” Bruno Bobkiewicz of the union of national school directors’ union (SNDPEN), told BFMTV, despite recognising an acceleration in the number of positive cases in schools.

"Gaps widened between students who were able to follow the lessons from those and those who couldn't," he said.

When President Emmanuel Macron laid out the government's strategy to return all children to the classroom in September, he said that "in the life of a child, staying at home for two months is traumatising."

 

[FatSuperman]

But I demand to be able to celebrate the birth of someone who I don't believe existed in the only way possible.

Gluttony
Excess.
&
Crippling debt.



It's why the good lord invented advertising.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Why should you?

Because if you don’t you’re a selfish prick. Why are YOU special?

thanks HKFC i was checking to see if this would be picked up. I watched the news tonight and some w*nker on there saying how he had nipped over to Derby from Nottingham because the betting shops are open there and so are the pubs.... and that rules are there to break and basically f*ck you as long as i am alright.

Maybe they should make the rule breakers part of the early trials because to them the virus is obviously no big deal.

 

[Bozza]

When they talk about the NHS being over run, where is this? Because it hasn’t happened in the North where cases have peaked and plateaued. It hasn’t happened in the South.

And to the best of my knowledge they still haven’t used any of the Nightingale hospitals this time round either, all of which means we still have massive unused capacity.

1. NHS over-run: If you are going to do something I imagine it's best to do that BEFORE people are being turned away from hospital if you anticipate it's a likely outcome of the current direction and speed of travel. Note: I'm not saying it is, but the people making decisions and the people advising those making decisions will have a lot of data available to them to assist in their decisions.

In Leeds this week, people with cancer have had treatments cancelled due to the strain on local hospitals. If rates continue to rise (again I'm not saying they will, but if they do...) then more and more people will miss out on treatment. When people turn up at hospital struggling to breathe they will not be turned away if it can be avoided.

2. Nightingales: Simplistically, there are two resources constraints a health service has: things and people. Things - buildings, beds, PPE and ventilators etc can be resolved and, probably have been. It takes years for highly-skilled ICU health professionals to be trained to the level required to deliver this critical care - there are very few shortcuts, particularly when nearly every country around the world needs their own people for their own hospitals.

This resource constraint is compounded by two things...

- The disregard shown to the NHS by governments, leaving it ill-prepared for what it has to deal with right now.
- People working in hospital are far more likely to catch the virus and then need to self-isolate, leaving already stretched staffing at threadbare levels. Other countries have resorted to asking infected staff with mild symptoms to carry on working in order to keep their health service operational. Is this wise? I have no idea, but it feels like a last resort.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Under their new lockdowns, schools have remained open in France and Germany.

In France for example, they consider that psychological and educational benefits of children going to school outweigh the CV19 risks:

“The government has repeatedly stressed that the economic and psychological impact of the two months of near-total confinement in the spring was too heavy for such measures to be re-introduced.

While some epidemiologists are calling for schools to remain closed after the holidays, teachers argue that the lockdown showed that home schooling simply “didn’t work”.

“We are calling for the maintenance of in-person lessons,” Bruno Bobkiewicz of the union of national school directors’ union (SNDPEN), told BFMTV, despite recognising an acceleration in the number of positive cases in schools.

"Gaps widened between students who were able to follow the lessons from those and those who couldn't," he said.

When President Emmanuel Macron laid out the government's strategy to return all children to the classroom in September, he said that "in the life of a child, staying at home for two months is traumatising."

Yes, that is an argument. The counter to it is a second wave of the virus. There is a clear choice to be made and current policy of keeping education open at all costs has put teachers and parents in the firing line.

 

[wellquickwoody]

I cannot see this having any chance of working. Firstly, if education remains open there will continue to be tens of millions of potential routes of transmission. Secondly, if it’s all to ‘save Christmas’, then any progress that is made will be quickly wiped out in December anyway. This is nothing more than a selfish political move from Johnson to cling on to his job as he knows the first sign of a hospital going under is him finished.

Whilst I am unsure if it can work,I cannot for the life of me see how this could be a selfish political move by Boris, hardly going to make him popular is it?

 

[clapham_gull]

Whilst I am unsure if it can work,I cannot for the life of me see how this could be a selfish political move by Boris, hardly going to make him popular is it?

Especially not within his own party. Very odd post I agree.

 

[Weststander]

To be fair to Johnson, whom I cannot abide, this is coming from scientists and the fact that hospitals are supposedly n danger of being overwhelmed. A lot of other countries are going back in to lockdown. I don't see that he has much choice but to follow suit. I think in this situation he's damned whatever he does.
However , it is utterly pointless.

Are saving lives and preserving NHS functionality utterly pointless?

Love or hate them, but restrictions and lockdowns inhibit the spread of a killer disease.

 

[beorhthelm]

When they talk about the NHS being over run, where is this? Because it hasn’t happened in the North where cases have peaked and plateaued. It hasn’t happened in the South.

its an odd claim, we've not heard of any actual problems at hospitals. if there is anything to this i wonder if they are being spooked by numbers and effects in Europe, and want to avoid the accusations they didnt act.

 

[Giraffe]

1. NHS over-run: If you are going to do something I imagine it's best to do that BEFORE people are being turned away from hospital if you anticipate it's a likely outcome of the current direction and speed of travel. Note: I'm not saying it is, but the people making decisions and the people advising those making decisions will have a lot of data available to them to assist in their decisions.

In Leeds this week, people with cancer have had treatments cancelled due to the strain on local hospitals. If rates continue to rise (again I'm not saying they will, but if they do...) then more and more people will miss out on treatment. When people turn up at hospital struggling to breathe they will not be turned away if it can be avoided.

2. Nightingales: Simplistically, there are two resources constraints a health service has: things and people. Things - buildings, beds, PPE and ventilators etc can be resolved and, probably have. It takes years for highly-skilled ICU health professionals to be trained to the level required to deliver this critical care - there are very few shortcuts, particularly when nearly every country around needs their own people for their own hospitals.

This resource constraint is compounded by two things...

- The disregard shown to the NHS by governments, leaving it ill-prepared for what it has to deal with right now.
- People working in hospital are far more likely to catch the virus and then need to self-isolate, leaving already stretched staffing at threadbare levels. Other countries have resorted to asking infected staff with mild symptoms to carry on working in order to keep their health service operational. Is this wise? I have no idea, but it feels like a last resort.

All very valid points. I can’t argue with that. I guess it comes down to trust in those making the decisions though. We obviously don’t have access to the details but I know someone in the NHS who was told 6 weeks ago that these would be the dates of the lockdown. That seems odd to me. The same person says they have never been quieter at this time of the year.

 

[atomised]

Why should you?

Because if you don’t you’re a selfish prick. Why are YOU special?

I'm a selfish prick. Seriously?? For wanting to spend Christmas day with my partner and our 2 kids at home both of whom are dealing with sexual abuse at the hands of their uncle. The same as we do every year. A 5 year old and 8 year old who are going through absolute hell and all I'm.asking is to have the christmas we have had for the last 3 years. I really do not see what is wrong with that. We have no other family and if that makes me a selfish prick I will live with it. Cheers

 

[Weststander]

Whilst I am unsure if it can work,I cannot for the life of me see how this could be a selfish political move by Boris, hardly going to make him popular is it?

It won’t.

 

[El Presidente]

When they talk about the NHS being over run, where is this? Because it hasn’t happened in the North where cases have peaked and plateaued. It hasn’t happened in the South.

And to the best of my knowledge they still haven’t used any of the Nightingale hospitals this time round either, all of which means we still have massive unused capacity.

And on a separate point of order. No one can sacrifice Christmas. Jesus was born, approximately 2020 years ago. Whether we have 20 people for lunch on Christmas Day or 6, thats still a fact.

Pointless having Nightingale hospitals if there’s no staff to operate them.

 

[The Clamp]

Are saving lives and preserving NHS functionality utterly pointless?

Love or hate them, but restrictions and lockdowns inhibit the spread of a killer disease.

It’s pointless unless we stay in lockdown until a vaccine is viable. Otherwise it’s just delaying the inevitable and strangling the economy at the same time.

 

[atomised]

That’s going to help too isn’t it ...you must be so perfect

Especially considering what the my Christmas I refer to is

 

[El Presidente]

R rates at some universities were six a few weeks ago.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

When they talk about the NHS being over run, where is this? Because it hasn’t happened in the North where cases have peaked and plateaued. It hasn’t happened in the South.

And to the best of my knowledge they still haven’t used any of the Nightingale hospitals this time round either, all of which means we still have massive unused capacity.

And on a separate point of order. No one can sacrifice Christmas. Jesus was born, approximately 2020 years ago. Whether we have 20 people for lunch on Christmas Day or 6, thats still a fact.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ospitals-dangerously-close-being-19127081.amp

That article is from the 19th October. The situation is unlikely to have improved in the past fortnight.

 

[atomised]

thanks HKFC i was checking to see if this would be picked up. I watched the news tonight and some w*nker on there saying how he had nipped over to Derby from Nottingham because the betting shops are open there and so are the pubs.... and that rules are there to break and basically f*ck you as long as i am alright.

Maybe they should make the rule breakers part of the early trials because to them the virus is obviously no big deal.

Please see my reply to HKFC and see if you still wish to tar me and my family with that particular brush

 

[Weststander]

I'm a selfish prick. Seriously?? For wanting to spend Christmas day with my partner and our 2 kids at home both of whom are dealing with sexual abuse at the hands of their uncle. The same as we do every year. A 5 year old and 8 year old who are going through absolute hell and all I'm.asking is to have the christmas we have had for the last 3 years. I really do not see what is wrong with that. We have no other family and if that makes me a selfish prick I will live with it. Cheers

Sorry of course for those horrible events and the effect on your loved ones.

Is there a threat to you four having a Christmas with presents, lights, a tree and nice food?

You could’ve done that in April, although it would’ve been odd, so you can shirley do that this Christmas.