Film of hostage Olin Armstrong...

[Uncle Spielberg]

Pav - I think we know these are bad guys without seeing their deeds on the internet as some sort of sick pastime.

 

[Meade's Ball]

Are you saying that we should ignore what is actually happening?

Do you think that is the way forward, pretend things aren't as bad as they are, pretend its all Bush and Blairs fault?

If you see exactly what these sick fucks are capable of with your own eyes you soon realise who the bad guys are here.

Don't the images of towns and cities laid to rubble and dust have a similar effect on you? If you watched footage of a cluster bomb going off in a heavily-peopled market with the limbs of all those innocent strewn in broken shop-fronts and eyes left useless and bloody, would you still be so clear as to who the good guys are?

There are no good guys here. Just different shades of evil.


And by the way, you don't have to watch someone having his head cut off to know what's going on.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I don't buy that argument, Meade's Ball.

These terrorists had guns, but they chose to behead because it shocks and because they enjoy it.

We, as British people, are desensitised to violence. There is too much of it on TV and in movies, yet it is never real. People make no connection with real life because they are protected from seeing real violence.

If people were affected by real images of suffering they would be more likely to do something about it, like get out and vote for starters.

To those who say you don't have to watch a horrible image to get the general picture , I would say that there is enough TV adverts showing graphic pictures of people dying in car crashes and smokers who can hardly breath, and they are extremely effective in changing personal habits.

You can also say the same thing about people who see a film of an animal being slaughtered and who turn vegetarian.

 

[The Great Cornholio]

Gareth please! What is 'humane' about injecting people with a drug that paralises them and then a series of drugs that explode their internal organs? Or passing thousands of vaults through their body until they slowly fry? And this to people who in some cases have no concept of the crime they have commited or are young and black with overwhelming evidence suggesting they were innocent but, hey, there's an election coming up, can't be seen as 'soft on crime'.

I have been unlucky enough to witness a tape of a state sponsored murder. Believe me, there is nothing humane about it.

On a lighter note - I can't believe this was allowed to pass! How the hell to you pass thousands of vaults through someone? Is it the bank kind or the jumping over a box kind?

 

[Meade's Ball]

I don't buy that argument, Meade's Ball.

These terrorists had guns, but they chose to behead because it shocks and because they enjoy it.

We, as British people, are desensitised to violence. There is too much of it on TV and in movies, yet it is never real. People make no connection with real life because they are protected from seeing real violence.

If people were affected by real images of suffering they would be more likely to do something about it, like get out and vote for starters.

To those who say you don't have to watch a horrible image to get the general picture , I would say that there is enough TV adverts showing graphic pictures of people dying in car crashes and smokers who can hardly breath, and they are extremely effective in changing personal habits.

I think it's such a difficult thing to get into the mind of someone else from such an entirely different background and culture. We're looking at people who would sink to this level as they believe they are doing the work of God. Until you find a way to understand that, you'll label them animals, while they call themselves heroes.
You might be right, but i don't think we're in any position to make that call.
But i don't think there is such a difference between our determination to humiliate and torture our enemies.

Do you think that watching the footage has put you off beheading people from now on?

 

[¡Cereal Killer!]

After watching Nick Bergs beheading, I don't think I will be watching this!

I think it's f***ing sickening what they do! how would they feel if they were to be beheaded!

 

[NMH]

It's important to know what's going on and what images these terrorists are putting out for public consumption.

I have a feeling that, if there was no news at all on the situation while it is in progress, the terrorists would not have a platform and wouldn't be able to do these disgusting acts toward any end.

The media actually propogates terrorism for them - even telling them how effectively it is working!

As for viewing the beheading - it's a lot like people who rush to watch after a car wreck or any road death - morbid fascination and equates as sick.
I'm not living in a Mickey Mouse World here, but I'm definitely not about to seek-out atrocities for my own shock and disgust - better to perform autopsies or work in a morgue if that's your bag.

 

[NMH]

The USA do a least make the killing " humane ". I don;t agree with the death penalty however. I don;t think you'll find Bush is about to start beheading people on Death Row and broadcasting it.

Certainly there would be more cause for doing that, as it would, at least, discourage criminals further and people would categorise the victims as 'more deserving' of their fate.
Even so, it's not something I'd recommend to anyone except perhaps the family of the deceased victim of the original crime.

At the moment there might be some point to releasing the 'Iraqi women prisoners' in exchange for the hostages, but place a homing device on them (orally, perhaps) so that they can be tracked until they lead our troops to the bad guys. Just an idea, I'm sure that's got it's flaws though.

 

[B.M.F]

Certainly there would be more cause for doing that, as it would, at least, discourage criminals further and people would categorise the victims as 'more deserving' of their fate.
Even so, it's not something I'd recommend to anyone except perhaps the family of the deceased victim of the original crime.

At the moment there might be some point to releasing the 'Iraqi women prisoners' in exchange for the hostages, but place a homing device on them (orally, perhaps) so that they can be tracked until they lead our troops to the bad guys. Just an idea, I'm sure that's got it's flaws though.

I think human rights would have a field day and some solicitor would get the bastards off with entrapment. Feckin good Idea if we were going to kill them though

 

[Pavilionaire]

Whether you choose to watch the footage or not is up to the individual, there's no right or wrong on that score.

It's good that the internet is here to give people that choice, and to show them images and tell the stories not carried by the TV stations and written press.

I think that, generally, our press does not go far enough to bring home the full horrors of conflict, and that this viewpoint applies even more in the States.

 

[Easy 10]

At the moment there might be some point to releasing the 'Iraqi women prisoners' in exchange for the hostages, but place a homing device on them (orally, perhaps) so that they can be tracked until they lead our troops to the bad guys. Just an idea, I'm sure that's got it's flaws though.

Thereby giving terrorists the message that kidnapping hostages and beheading them does actually work (even if it was, initially, under a false pretence). We'd have truckloads of innocent people being taken hostage daily for a hundred different "causes".

These terrorists know damn well that those Iraqi women prisoners won't be released by the West anyway - when have these kind of demands ever worked for them ? The real reason to demand a "worthy cause" like the release of Iraqi women is to help influence and to rally the cause of the Tawhid/Jihad terror group.

Tragically, these three fella's were doomed as soon as they were captured.

 

[NMH]

Thereby giving terrorists the message that kidnapping hostages and beheading them does actually work (even if it was, initially, under a false pretence). We'd have truckloads of innocent people being taken hostage daily for a hundred different "causes".

These terrorists know damn well that those Iraqi women prisoners won't be released by the West anyway - when have these kind of demands ever worked for them ? The real reason to demand a "worthy cause" like the release of Iraqi women is to help influence and to rally the cause of the Tawhid/Jihad terror group.

Tragically, these three fella's were doomed as soon as they were captured.

Not the first bit, because the only idea would be to catch the buggers and make examples of them - turning the tables somewhat on Zakoui (or however it's spelled)

Agreed on the last parts though, they are enacting their cause versus ours, and trying to be as barbaric as possible to strike fear into people. That's their way of getting 'respect' in their world, unfortunately.

I often wonder why anyone goes there to do civil work - even at the best of times these cultures are very dodgy to visit. I'd be very careful if I was even in Tunisia or Saudi Arabia, let alone Iraq!

 

[London Irish]

The media actually propogates terrorism for them - even telling them how effectively it is working!

No branch of the media, not one, will show these disgusting images. Only small, unaccountable, unethical websites will become accessories after the fact of murder and do the killers' bidding by publicising the gruesome video detail of their vile acts.

All civilised people should condemn anyone who propogates these images, websites, servers, anyone who puts links to them. Viewing them is as dehumanising as watching snuff movies or child pornography.

There is no "public interest" defence in showing the images. Anyone with half a brain cell can understand the horror of this murder without viewing the sick act itself.

Does it enable you to understand better the horrific situation on the ground in Iraq? Of course not, in any normal person it will only produce a horrified emotional spasm. Understanding what is happening on the ground in Iraq can only happen by reading as many reports and analysis of the conflict from as many different sources as you can, official media organisations, activist campaigning groups, web blogs.

 

[somerset]

The USA do a least make the killing " humane ". I don;t agree with the death penalty however. I don;t think you'll find Bush is about to start beheading people on Death Row and broadcasting it.

Exactly, and don't forget , the criminals in the US have at least gone through exhaustive due process before being put to death as humanely as possible, yes sedated, but at least they go peacefully if there is such a thing.

These animals in the middle east cut the heads off innocents, using an ordinary carving knife by sawing at the neck, while the victim is still alive and aware, (i have seen the footage of previous ones, Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl).

Pure and simply we are dealing with barbarians, and sadly as quoted before in this thread, I dont think it will stop.

PS - before some of you say 'why watch it?', I reply unless you are fully informed, how can you make an accurate judgement and opinion.

 

[somerset]

No branch of the media, not one, will show these disgusting images. Only small, unaccountable, unethical websites will become accessories after the fact of murder and do the killers' bidding by publicising the gruesome video detail of their vile acts.

All civilised people should condemn anyone who propogates these images, websites, servers, anyone who puts links to them. Viewing them is as dehumanising as watching snuff movies or child pornography.

There is no "public interest" defence in showing the images. Anyone with half a brain cell can understand the horror of this murder without viewing the sick act itself.

Does it enable you to understand better the horrific situation on the ground in Iraq? Of course not, in any normal person it will only produce a horrified emotional spasm. Understanding what is happening on the ground in Iraq can only happen by reading as many reports and analysis of the conflict from as many different sources as you can, official media organisations, activist campaigning groups, web blogs.

Ok London Irish, although you have me blocked I will reply anyway.

As you are a member of the press corps in some way, I would expect you to take the defensive view, but tell me this, have not the worlds press, reputable or otherwise, regularly published gruesome images of the public beheadings in Saudi, of the dismembered bodies of those americans hanging from a bridge in Iraq........ tell me why you get all pompous about these recent deaths by beheading, but are happy to publish other atrocities.

Just a thought.

 

[Uncle Spielberg]

Apparently the 2nd American got beheaded yesterday. There is a glimmer of hope as 1 woman Iraqi prisoner may be released, which has nothing to do with the terrorists demands . The Brit may be saved.

At least the Cleric from the South of Iraq told his followers that kidnapping and beheading innocent civilians was not the way and showed a shred of decency.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

We are beheading innocents as well, but by using cluster bombs and the like instead. Never forget that. Bush and Blair may not be holding a knife but they are doing the same thing as these people.

There is no good and bad, just two sets of evil fighting each other. And our side started it.

Seeing the pictures of mutilated bodies that have come out of this war only makes me want to do one thing - get rid of our government.

 

[GUNTER]

Mike Parry was saying on talksport this morning that the ringleader (forget his name) likes to personally behead his prisoners as he gets a "sexual thrill" out of it.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Mike Parry was saying on talksport this morning that the ringleader (forget his name) likes to personally behead his prisoners as he gets a "sexual thrill" out of it.

How the f*** do they know that?


I find it quite sad that the Iraqis are releasing Mrs Anthrax or wahtever they call her because she isn't dangerous enough to warrant holding anymore. It's a big coincidence and I do hope it doesn't make the hostage takers think, even in the slightest, that their plan worked.

 

[Hungry Joe.]

No branch of the media, not one, will show these disgusting images. Only small, unaccountable, unethical websites will become accessories after the fact of murder and do the killers' bidding by publicising the gruesome video detail of their vile acts.

All civilised people should condemn anyone who propogates these images, websites, servers, anyone who puts links to them. Viewing them is as dehumanising as watching snuff movies or child pornography.

There is no "public interest" defence in showing the images. Anyone with half a brain cell can understand the horror of this murder without viewing the sick act itself.

Does it enable you to understand better the horrific situation on the ground in Iraq? Of course not, in any normal person it will only produce a horrified emotional spasm. Understanding what is happening on the ground in Iraq can only happen by reading as many reports and analysis of the conflict from as many different sources as you can, official media organisations, activist campaigning groups, web blogs.

I agree up to a point LI that the posting of these images is more ghoulish than any attempt to educate or alter public opinion but there is a precedent in Vietnam of the showing of images of people being killed, often hoffically, changing the course of a conflict. Since then the media and Western governments have been loathed to show any such images at prime times or for mass public consumption. The USA is particularly prone to public opinion being swayed by TV and/or internet images as many of their citizens have little knowledge of or interest in the reality of their governments actions abroad, and it's consequences, without it being shoved down their throat. The sanitisation of the last two Gulf Wars via the media is largely because the military have learned their lesson from Vietnam and know that there IS a difference between imagining what is happening and actually seeing it happen. There would undoubtably have been a much greater anti-war protest in the USA if brutal images of their troops and Iraqi soldiers and, more importantly, civilians being slaughtered had been shown or made available. The same can be argued for showing images of the execution, not necessarily in full form but maybe in still photography. As disturbing as it is seeing the captives in obvious terror prior to their execution it does not have the same effect of revultion of actually seeing some aspect of the murder. There are signs already of a political shift in Britain and the USA against this continuing conflict and our involvement in it. I believe this is partly due to some of the images the ordinary citizens of both countries are seeing. The images of rows of American soldiers coffins being unloaded from B52's caused a wave of horror in the States (images the US Government had tried to censor). Imagine what more constant and graphic broadcasting could do in terms of ending the conflict by forcing our Governemnts to abandon this insane mission they're on.