Europe: In or Out

[father_and_son]

You've just described UK parliament perfectly.

Our parliament is flawed in one subtle and one significant way...

Subtle... we are a confrontational democracy... The job of the opposition is to oppose government regardless of how good or bad the idea they are proposing is. This means we have Whips to control the MPs don't actually vote for a good idea regardless of who thought it up! If we were to allow all MPs to vote on all issues in line with their on conscience then they would be both more accountable to the electorate and only the good ideas would be voted in.

The significant one is that we, the public, now have so little respect for our MPs that it has become a sh*t job for sh*t people. Anyone with brains or talent does something, ANYTHING, else but be a politician. Those who got a degree in something pointless, who live on family or union money and are marking time until they can get a cushy job somewhere go into politics. If we had intelligent, principled people in the job then, again, we would get a better result. But which intelligent, principled person would want to be hated and derided by half the population without even opening their mouth.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Export 'disappointment'

And how do we target them? Do you want to represent 23% of global GDP in these negotiations or 3? If we sign trade agreements for the EU as a whole we have the full force of an economy seven times larger than the UK's negotiating the terms. If we stay in the EU British businesses will get better terms in these bigger markets.

Civitas studied official trade statistics and said that Britain had recorded slower export growth than any of the other founding nations of Europe's single market.

Michael Burrage, who wrote the report, said: "While the single market cannot be counted a success in export terms for the EU as a whole, for the UK it must be counted at the very least a massive disappointment, and not far short of a disaster."

His report found growth in UK exports had tended to drop after European Commission trade deals, whereas independent countries Switzerland, Singapore and South Korea grew exports in the majority of cases after they negotiated their own trade agreements.

He added that UK export growth was 22.3% lower since joining the single market at the end of 1992 than it would have been had it continued at its rate during the common market in 1973-1992.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35394839

 

[Gullflyinghigh]

In.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

The other day I recieved the 'IN' Campaign leaflet through the door...on the back it was saying that all UKIP were lying about Europe and they stated that they were telling the truth with their facts on the EU...then they get hoisted by their own petard by stating inside...Nobody knows what life outside the EU will be like...so they were telling the truth but nobody knows.
Still not one person has shown me A SINGLE advantage of being IN !

 

[Bakero]

The other day I recieved the 'IN' Campaign leaflet through the door...on the back it was saying that all UKIP were lying about Europe and they stated that they were telling the truth with their facts on the EU...then they get hoisted by their own petard by stating inside...Nobody knows what life outside the EU will be like...so they were telling the truth but nobody knows.
Still not one person has shown me A SINGLE advantage of being IN !

What were their facts on the EU?

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

It's fine that a lot of the academics and highly educated on here are arguing to remain in, but the average person on the street wants out. Your average tabloid reader, and there are plenty of them, does not want to stay in Europe - they see it in simple terms.

OUT!

There are many highly educated academics who want out. You'd better believe it.

In the same way that everyone, apart from the pollsters, knew that Labour would tank in the general election I'd say that the OUT vote outstrips the IN vote by quite some way amongst my nearest and dearest.

Personally I can grasp the idea that UK staying in is better for our economic and social wellbeing but there is something very enticing about the idea of the Brits giving the bird to Frau merkel and Van Rumpooy. So enticing that I'm prepared to risk us sailing off into he sunset alone.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

Until we fully understand:

a. What will be negotiated, and,
b. How well those megotiations have gone

I don't think anyone can answer.

I would prefer we stayed, but think there's a serious amount of not oinly renegotiation but rigour needed around how much "law" or "treaty" is adhered too and how that varies from country to country and issue to issue.

 

[Murray 17]

There are many highly educated academics who want out. You'd better believe it.

In the same way that everyone, apart from the pollsters, knew that Labour would tank in the general election I'd say that the OUT vote outstrips the IN vote by quite some way amongst my nearest and dearest.

Personally I can grasp the idea that UK staying in is better for our economic and social wellbeing but there is something very enticing about the idea of the Brits giving the bird to Frau merkel and Van Rumpooy. So enticing that I'm prepared to risk us sailing off into he sunset alone.

That's good to know. I want out but could accept us staying if there were some serious concessions on freedom of movement and the human rights act.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Until we fully understand:

a. What will be negotiated, and,
b. How well those megotiations have gone

I don't think anyone can answer.

I would prefer we stayed, but think there's a serious amount of not oinly renegotiation but rigour needed around how much "law" or "treaty" is adhered too and how that varies from country to country and issue to issue.

But we do know what's being negotiated and it is highly snore worthy. Protection for countries not using the euro? Well,. I'd say that is something only the money markets could deliver. No further moves towards federalisation? This already exists via the veto system. In work benefit cessation for eu migrants for 4 years?. I think it has been said before that most migrants come here to WORK not claim benefits. The vast majority will still come for that reason. It's almost certain that even if we vote OUT and the migrants still come then that will be taken apart in the appeals courts.

 

[5ways]

Civitas studied official trade statistics and said that Britain had recorded slower export growth than any of the other founding nations of Europe's single market.

Michael Burrage, who wrote the report, said: "While the single market cannot be counted a success in export terms for the EU as a whole, for the UK it must be counted at the very least a massive disappointment, and not far short of a disaster."

His report found growth in UK exports had tended to drop after European Commission trade deals, whereas independent countries Switzerland, Singapore and South Korea grew exports in the majority of cases after they negotiated their own trade agreements.

He added that UK export growth was 22.3% lower since joining the single market at the end of 1992 than it would have been had it continued at its rate during the common market in 1973-1992.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35394839

I think this lack of export growth in the UK is probably because, regardless of the EU, we unfortunately don't export very much anyway. The common market period growth rate was a time when Britain had a larger manufacturing sector and a smaller services sector; the modern UK economy is very service heavy.

The good news is that if we do manufacture more, as we all agree we should, we have the single market to sell to and EU trade deals to help the UK sell in other markets

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Still not one person has shown me A SINGLE advantage of being IN !

im sure we/they have. Whether you choose to listen is the question.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I think this lack of export growth in the UK is probably because, regardless of the EU, we unfortunately don't export very much anyway. The common market period growth rate was a time when Britain had a larger manufacturing sector and a smaller services sector; the modern UK economy is very service heavy.

The good news is that if we do manufacture more, as we all agree we should, we have the single market to sell to and EU trade deals to help the UK sell in other markets

Interesting theory but it doesn't address the underlying point that the supposed benefit of being part of a big trading block automatically leads to better trade deals isn't necessarily true, which was your original argument.

 

[5ways]

Interesting theory but it doesn't address the underlying point that the supposed benefit of being part of a big trading block automatically leads to better trade deals isn't necessarily true, which was your original argument.

I concede the point but it remains the case I think that if and when these deals are signed it is better to represent 23% of global gdp not 3%, it would be costly and time-consuming to rewrite existing treaties and agreements (which would likely result in a short-term recession). What is definitely true is that trade with the EU, our biggest trading partner, costs have
" dropped by 15 percentage points between 1995 and 2010 – although the decline stopped after 2007." http://www.britishinfluence.org/would_britain_s_trade_be_freer_outside_the_eu

And what about our second biggest export market, the US? We currently don't have a free trade agreement with the US, but would be part of TTIP. As their UK trade rep says "“We have no FTA with the UK so they would be subject to the same tariffs – and other trade-related measures – as China, or Brazil or India,” he said." So here being part of the EU will definitely lead to a better deal.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-it-could-face-trade-barriers-if-it-leaves-eu
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-it-could-face-trade-barriers-if-it-leaves-eu

 

[Notters]

There are many highly educated academics who want out. You'd better believe it.

In the same way that everyone, apart from the pollsters, knew that Labour would tank in the general election I'd say that the OUT vote outstrips the IN vote by quite some way amongst my nearest and dearest.

Personally I can grasp the idea that UK staying in is better for our economic and social wellbeing but there is something very enticing about the idea of the Brits giving the bird to Frau merkel and Van Rumpooy. So enticing that I'm prepared to risk us sailing off into he sunset alone.

Don't think I know anyone who would vote "out" in real life.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I concede the point but it remains the case I think that if and when these deals are signed it is better to represent 23% of global gdp not 3%, it would be costly and time-consuming to rewrite existing treaties and agreements (which would likely result in a short-term recession). What is definitely true is that trade with the EU, our biggest trading partner, costs have
" dropped by 15 percentage points between 1995 and 2010 – although the decline stopped after 2007." http://www.britishinfluence.org/would_britain_s_trade_be_freer_outside_the_eu

And what about our second biggest export market, the US? We currently don't have a free trade agreement with the US, but would be part of TTIP. As their UK trade rep says "“We have no FTA with the UK so they would be subject to the same tariffs – and other trade-related measures – as China, or Brazil or India,” he said." So here being part of the EU will definitely lead to a better deal.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-it-could-face-trade-barriers-if-it-leaves-eu
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...-it-could-face-trade-barriers-if-it-leaves-eu

I would have thought so to but the figures quoted in that report suggest otherwise. I don't think cost is much of an issue as our net contributions to the EU might possibly cover it ..

Britain’s contribution to the European Union budget is set to be £3.1 billion higher over the next five years than was forecast before the election.
The Office for Budget Responsibility said it expects Britain’s contributions to Brussels to jump by £1.3 billion next year alone.

The revisions are in part due to a reassessment by economists of the size of Britain’s economy compared to the rest of Europe. Critics will argue that it in effect means that Britain is being penalised for economic success.

The increase appears in official government forecasts issued just months apart,
An increase in VAT revenues compared the rest of Europe, and an increase in revenues from EU tariffs on imports such as sugar, are also likely to drive the increase.

Britain will make a net contribution to the EU budget of £10.4 billion this year, up from a forecast of £9.9 billion in March.

Britain is next year expected to pay £9.5 billion, against a forecast four months earlier of £8.2 billion.

http://www.northstandchat.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=332756

The Americans want us to stay in (their voice in Europe) so they would say that wouldn't they but any suggestion that as America's closest Ally we would get a worse FTA deal is unlikely IMO.

We can swap links and reports all day but as I said previously any claims of economic disaster if we leave are purely speculative and often come from sources with a clear agenda.

But we are certain of the costs of remaining in. (#139)

 

[sir albion]

Don't think I know anyone who would vote "out" in real life.

I'd say 90% of who I know want out thankfully...
All people blab on about is trade deals and money money money....What about the changing face of Britain?surely you'd want to protect our identity and sovereignty and to halt the hideous 100's of thousands that move here every year and with turkey being rushed through it will become a terrible place Europe.

If the vote is YES then the EU twats will absolutely destroy this country and will get more powers and this migration debacle will get much much worse.
Money needs to be left out of protecting our great country for once as that's all these idiotic business leaders go on about and clearly swarming our country with cheap labour is all that matters as long as they line their pockets,while the idiotic government do fack all about schools,hospitals,cheaper homes etc etc etc.


It's a time bomb if we continue this way

 

[Soulman]

Did no one at the In campaign think to check before Alan turned up with a film crew?
Alan Johnson is touring firms across the East Midlands with a camera crew today, hoping to speak to business owners who want to stay in the EU. You might think the pictures at the factory of clothing manufacturer David Nieper look a little awkward…
Just last week, managing director Chris Nieper, above left, said that Britain’s influence in the EU is “absolutely pitiful” and that business has “nothing to fear” from Brexit:
http://order-order.com/2016/01/25/awkward-alan-johnsons-eurosceptic-factory-tour/

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I'd say 90% of who I know want out thankfully...
All people blab on about is trade deals and money money money....What about the changing face of Britain?surely you'd want to protect our identity and sovereignty and to halt the hideous 100's of thousands that move here every year and with turkey being rushed through it will become a terrible place Europe.

If the vote is YES then the EU twats will absolutely destroy this country and will get more powers and this migration debacle will get much much worse.
Money needs to be left out of protecting our great country for once as that's all these idiotic business leaders go on about and clearly swarming our country with cheap labour is all that matters as long as they line their pockets,while the idiotic government do fack all about schools,hospitals,cheaper homes etc etc etc.


It's a time bomb if we continue this way

I've stayed out of this thread because the last time I got involved in the subject it was to gently suggest that Eurosceptics did themselves no favours by the fury of their manner and their claims that people who disagreed with their anti-EU stance were 'deluded'. A vocal sceptic on the board was so outraged by my contribution that he completely misread what I said and accused me of calling Eurosceptics deluded - thus, some might say, proving the point.

I'm sure they're all lovely people really.

Yours etc

"EU ****"

 

[cunning fergus]

The other day I recieved the 'IN' Campaign leaflet through the door...on the back it was saying that all UKIP were lying about Europe and they stated that they were telling the truth with their facts on the EU...then they get hoisted by their own petard by stating inside...Nobody knows what life outside the EU will be like...so they were telling the truth but nobody knows.
Still not one person has shown me A SINGLE advantage of being IN !

The leaflet I got was printed with small print relating to the involvement of Will Straw, the so far failed MP son of cash for access, warmonger dad Jack.

I would have thought Neil Kinnock's former MEP son (now MP) would have been better, at least he (and his Mum and Dad) could demonstrate how they have benefitted from being involved in the EU.

As a prospective PM Kinnock senior was going to lead the UK out but he became pro EU after getting the role of EU commissioner.

Straw Jr. could definitely learn from Kinnock Jr. in developing his political career by taking his first steps in the political world EU, after all it's worked for Clegg amongst others.

The advantages of IN are there, you need to look a bit harder........

 

[sten_super]

I'd say 90% of who I know want out thankfully...
All people blab on about is trade deals and money money money....What about the changing face of Britain?surely you'd want to protect our identity and sovereignty and to halt the hideous 100's of thousands that move here every year and with turkey being rushed through it will become a terrible place Europe.

This is a legitimate viewpoint - the problem is that no-one on the 'Out' side is talking about a version of being outside the EU where this would be the case. Because the 'Out' campaigners feel compelled to spin a positive economic story around leaving, they all have continued membership of the single market as a key plank in their vision of 'out', and that means continued freedom of movement (so no way of limiting EU migration).

I think there's a pretty major disconnect between the reasons that most of the public want out of the EU and what the politicians view as deliverable, and that's a major problem.