EU Referendum NSC opinion poll 2015

[The Rivet]

Yes, propaganda is everywhere but the Outers are much more shouty when staking out their position. Opinions are presented as facts and (this was my point) their campaign will be hindered by their belief that any view but their own is delusional, and held by a minority.

Blimey and here I am thinking the leftie thinking, tree hugging and humanity brigade also try and hold that position. 'Shouty' is always what an activist does regardless of their view. The silent majority are the assassins whatever side they favour.

 

[Hampster Gull]

What I do take slight umbrage with is this repeated assignment of the word 'propaganda' used only to describe the Outers' point of view. It rather suggests that only one side is telling the truth and one side is spinning the stories to their favour. The reality is of course that both sides are spinning their propaganda for their own ends.

Good post Buzzer. I do beleive my own propaganda but then i am right

Ultimately this is a huge issue and people will need to weigh up the arguements and make a call. for me i hope we want to engage and not isolate ourselves

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I do beleive my own propaganda but then i am right

Ultimately this is a huge issue and people will need to weigh up the arguements and make a call. for me i hope we want to engage and not isolate ourselves

You are.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Yes, propaganda is everywhere but the Outers are much more shouty when staking out their position. Opinions are presented as facts and (this was my point) their campaign will be hindered by their belief that any view but their own is delusional, and held by a minority.

You appear to being quite shouty yourself with a post like this one.

There will be shouty people in both camps and there will be people in both camps who claim opinions as facts ( I'm sure we'll keep hearing that we'll no long be able to trade ever again with EU members and that economy will collapse with the loss of millions of jobs - all opinion not fact ).

And unless you happen to have a crystal ball it's rather arrogant to assume you know which camp holds the minority view - until of course the votes are counted.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

You appear to being quite shouty yourself with a post like this one.

There will be shouty people in both camps and there will be people in both camps who claim opinions as facts ( I'm sure we'll keep hearing that we'll no long be able to trade ever again with EU members and that economy will collapse with the loss of millions of jobs - all opinion not fact ).

And unless you happen to have a crystal ball it's rather arrogant to assume you know which camp holds the minority view - until of course the votes are counted.

I don't want to be picky but I've never heard anyone saying that the economy will collapse if we leave the EU and presenting it as a fact. Tell me more. Some people have implied we will start trading successfully with other parts of the world if we do leave and some people have said we will be in trouble - they are opinions and people will vote according to which side they think is making the right prediction. (Oh, I don't have a crystal ball and I don't know how people will vote. None of us does. But, y'know, opinion polls and that... I can't see how it's arrogant to point out that the polls, at the moment, are saying that more people want to stay than leave. And that people who say the opposite are wrong.)

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I don't want to be picky but I've never heard anyone saying that the economy will collapse if we leave the EU and presenting it as a fact. Tell me more. Some people have implied we will start trading successfully with other parts of the world if we do leave and some people have said we will be in trouble - they are opinions and people will vote according to which side they think is making the right prediction. (Oh, I don't have a crystal ball and I don't know how people will vote. None of us does. But, y'know, opinion polls and that... I can't see how it's arrogant to point out that the polls, at the moment, are saying that more people want to stay than leave. And that people who say the opposite are wrong.)

You've clearly missed the point I was making - you claimed that the Outers claim opinion as fact - which some do - but the implication in the way you stated it was that the Inners don't do so, which of course some do.

As for opinion polls ... yes, because they were SO right in May 2015.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

You've clearly missed the point I was making - you claimed that the Outers claim opinion as fact - which some do - but the implication in the way you stated it was that the Inners don't do so, which of course some do.

As for opinion polls ... yes, because they were SO right in May 2015.

Right, so you're telling me that, because a set of opinion polls got it wrong four months ago it is arrogant of me to point out what a different set of polls on a different subject is saying now? If anyone is still awake I'll leave them to draw their own conclusions. (I'm going for a little lie down now but have a good evening - I enjoyed the joust.)

 

[beorhthelm]

Yes, propaganda is everywhere but the Outers are much more shouty when staking out their position. Opinions are presented as facts and (this was my point) their campaign will be hindered by their belief that any view but their own is delusional, and held by a minority.

seem to me you've abley demostrated the ability of the "Inners" to do the same. the polling suggests right now both sides are minorities.

 

[melias shoes]

To be fair doesn't everyone believe their own propaganda?

I'm sure that the most rabid pro-EU supporters believe their version to be the truth. I've no doubt that back in 1999 Lord Mandelson, the CBI and Eddie Izzard truly believed that the UK's staying out of the Euro would have meant that we would become an economic backwater and not able to enjoy all the promised benefits of a single currency that Greece, Ireland, Spain and Germany et al would enjoy. They and others all warned us of this often. History has proven them very wrong but they were honestly held beliefs and likewise I'm sure they felt that they had the support of most reasonable people. There's evidence that backs up both sides' positions and just shows how unpredictable politics is.

What I do take slight umbrage with is this repeated assignment of the word 'propaganda' used only to describe the Outers' point of view. It rather suggests that only one side is telling the truth and one side is spinning the stories to their favour. The reality is of course that both sides are spinning their propaganda for their own ends.

Exactly. Well put.

 

[melias shoes]

Yes, propaganda is everywhere but the Outers are much more shouty when staking out their position. Opinions are presented as facts and (this was my point) their campaign will be hindered by their belief that any view but their own is delusional, and held by a minority.

The way I see it you are quite shouty with your opinions that the outers are shouty. In fact you are spouting propaganda in your beliefs by doing so. Both sides have their arguments . With some equally good and bad as each other.

 

[Dandyman]

With a long list of reservations, I'd vote to stay in as the prospect of being turned into ever more of an American colony is even worse than the corruption, incompetence and dishonesty we currently have.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

You are so full of shit.

get your head out of the sand !
regards
DR

 

[Pogue Mahone]

get your head out of the sand !
regards
DR

Join the human race.

Regards,

PM.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

So according to some on here the country can't survive out of the EU, well you'll never know untill we do
regards
DR

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Yes, propaganda is everywhere but the Outers are much more shouty when staking out their position. Opinions are presented as facts and (this was my point) their campaign will be hindered by their belief that any view but their own is delusional, and held by a minority.

Right, so you're telling me that, because a set of opinion polls got it wrong four months ago it is arrogant of me to point out what a different set of polls on a different subject is saying now? If anyone is still awake I'll leave them to draw their own conclusions. (I'm going for a little lie down now but have a good evening - I enjoyed the joust.)

I've re-quoted your original post that I commented on. You might like to highlight where you mention opinion polls ? You, in YOUR post, stated that the outers held a minority view. - there was no 'according to opinion polls' tagged on the end of your statement. Now remind me what it was you said about opinions being stated as facts ?

I have no issue with people holding an opposite opinion to mine - what I object to is the high and mighty, arrogant 'I'm far more intelligent than you' style posts such as yours. Your use of the word 'deluded' clearly shows you have no time for people if they don't hold the same view as you - in much the same way Herman Van Rompuy and his ilk in particular used to act. So how about you put forward some decent arguments for staying in the EU rather than try and paint those with an opposite view as being deluded ?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Join the human race.

Regards,
The race into Europe , totally unaceptable and needs to be stopped !!!!
regards
DR

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I've re-quoted your original post that I commented on. You might like to highlight where you mention opinion polls ? You, in YOUR post, stated that the outers held a minority view. - there was no 'according to opinion polls' tagged on the end of your statement. Now remind me what it was you said about opinions being stated as facts ?

I have no issue with people holding an opposite opinion to mine - what I object to is the high and mighty, arrogant 'I'm far more intelligent than you' style posts such as yours. Your use of the word 'deluded' clearly shows you have no time for people if they don't hold the same view as you - in much the same way Herman Van Rompuy and his ilk in particular used to act. So how about you put forward some decent arguments for staying in the EU rather than try and paint those with an opposite view as being deluded ?

Goodness!

Here are the facts. An 'outer' suggested that those not holding his view were a minority. I said that outers were hindering their case by claiming this, clearly implying that them were not a minority. You're right, I didn't add "according to opinion polls". I didn't need to - the ONLY information about what people are currently thinking comes from opinion polls. I just don't see the point you're making.

As for my use of the word 'deluded', words fail me. I have NOT called those who disagree with me 'deluded'. Quite the opposite. I complained about those on your side of the argument using that word to describe people on my side of it. I would not call people deluded, but others might. Check back through the thread to see where the word was used, and in support of which side of the argument.

If you feel that using the word 'deluded' demonstrates a lack of respect and high and mighty arrogance for those who hold a different view then I can only agree with you. That is why I didn't use it. For what it's worth, I have respect for those who disagree with me, which is why I don't use words like deluded. Or, for that matter, words like high, mighty and arrogant.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I suspect that the greatest danger facing the outers is a surfeit of absolute belief in their own propaganda, and a complete certainty that anyone who disagrees with them is delusional.

Yes, propaganda is everywhere but the Outers are much more shouty when staking out their position. Opinions are presented as facts and (this was my point) their campaign will be hindered by their belief that any view but their own is delusional, and held by a minority.

If you feel that using the word 'deluded' demonstrates a lack of respect and high and mighty arrogance for those who hold a different view then I can only agree with you. That is why I didn't use it. For what it's worth, I have respect for those who disagree with me, which is why I don't use words like deluded.

You're the one that started using the word - now point me to a post that suggests any outer has made that accusation .......

 

[La` Cucaracha¤]

 

[Hampster Gull]

So according to some on here the country can't survive out of the EU, well you'll never know untill we do
regards
DR

According to some on here Hyypia was never given the chance to build his own team And get the results he could have achieved and we'll never know unless we try so best we sack Hughton and get him back