Dutch cabinet approves partial ban on Islamic veil in public areas

[BigGully]

I don't sell bread. I sell decadent western literature to Burka wearing women. With respect.

Well, hardly an insight, with respect.

 

[symyjym]

So how will banning the Burka help the women then?

We have been brought up in a culture where we articulate with our facial expressions as well as vocally, and it is part of our communication skill set to see faces when talking. I don't have any problem with women wearing a hijab so I wouldn't ban them.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Well, hardly an insight, with respect.

No maybe not, but I would hope a slightly better one than somebody advocating banning a burka because they once saw someone wearing one collecting a kid from school, which was the main gist of my post, with respect. Oh and because they like to look at someone's face when they talk to them, not that they would ever talk to someone wearing a burka as they rarely see anyone wearing one.

 

[KZNSeagull]

We have been brought up in a culture where we articulate with our facial expressions as well as vocally, and it is part of our communication skill set to see faces when talking. I don't have any problem with women wearing a hijab so I wouldn't ban them.

Oh well, that's alright then, I am sure they will be delighted.

 

[SIMMO SAYS]

Playing devil's advocate here, but for many women a burqa has a positive effect on their quality of lives.

For example, it DOES reduce the temptation of men, it will certainly stop the ogling and harassment that Western women are constantly pestered with - something that could be particularly difficult for Middle Eastern women.

Bollocks

 

[symyjym]

Playing devil's advocate here, but for many women a burqa has a positive effect on their quality of lives.

For example, it DOES reduce the temptation of men, it will certainly stop the ogling and harassment that Western women are constantly pestered with - something that could be particularly difficult for Middle Eastern women.

It is more to do with jealous controlling husbands though. Women can dress modestly without resorting to burqas if that is a concern.

 

[Soulman]

This is a fallacy - I would argue that a vast majority of burqa wearers do it entirely out of choice. This got a lot of media attention several years ago, these women simply feel more comfortable in that dress for the reasons I mentioned. Both from a religious and moral perspective, they think it is right to minimise the temptations of men.

Of course it's an extreme approach, but then again so is women wearing short skirts with their tits hanging out and behaving promiscuously - in my opinion neither extreme is wrong, people should have absolute freedom over what they do with their own bodies.

As you say neither is wrong, but there are certain places where virtually completely covering the head is unacceptable, in court, in a passport control area, in a police station, a driving test, maybe at a job interview or signing on.......quite a few places where the face needs to be on display.

 

[symyjym]

This is a fallacy - I would argue that a vast majority of burqa wearers do it entirely out of choice. This got a lot of media attention several years ago, these women simply feel more comfortable in that dress for the reasons I mentioned. Both from a religious and moral perspective, they think it is right to minimise the temptations of men.

Of course it's an extreme approach, but then again so is women wearing short skirts with their tits hanging out and behaving promiscuously - in my opinion neither extreme is wrong, people should have absolute freedom over what they do with their own bodies.

We were all born with faces and just showing it doesn't automatically draw unwanted sexual attention.

 

[BadFish]

Perhaps a closer look at home instead of the middle east regarding "solving the problems of terrorism".
This article from the Guardian, endorsed by Britain’s most senior Muslim police chief.
Jihadi threat requires move into 'private space' of UK Muslims, says police chief .
Islamist propaganda is so potent it is influencing children as young as five and should be countered with intensified monitoring to detect the earliest signs of anti-western sentiment.
Chishty is the most senior Muslim officer in Britain’s police service and is head of community engagement for the Metropolitan police in London. He said Isis propaganda was so powerful he had to be vigilant about his own children. But some will argue that his ideas walk a fine line between vigilance in the face of potent extremist propaganda and criminalising thought.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...private-space-of-uk-muslims-says-police-chief

Hopefully the media source and the informer is acceptable to you and others.

...... and here is the problem in my opinion. Do you actually think that banning people from wearing face coverings in Holland (or anywhere else for that matter) or taking peoples citizenships away from them is going to make the blindest bit of different to this problem? Like I said in an earlier post these are bandaid solutions to a massive problem that will amount to nothing more than a drop in the ocean. I would suggest that banning the burka in the UK would in fact cause more of the anti western sentiment your quote mentions

 

[BadFish]

Quite agree. Trouble is, there are far too many (including some on here) only too quick to condemn any concerns about Islamic extremism as racism and / or xenophobia.

Exactly, easier to play the man than actually look at the problem. Of course there is always the option of diverting the problem, blaming everything on the west (which obviously has legs), or the good old plain and simple insults. None of which will address the growing problem here.

Racism has been mentioned twice on this thread, both times when someone is claiming that they get called racist when discussing concerns about islamic extremism. Talk about playing the man not the ball.

 

[BadFish]

Easy to say, "hear more voices/actions from those moderates of the religion" - and I'd agree it would be great to hear more.

The problem is though that whilst there are millions of moderate Muslims, peacefully carrying out their lives and speaking and acting moderately, they are NOT news.

What is news are the small number, so small that in most cases they are listed by name in the media, who speak and behave in a radical manner.

That's why it is important to encourage people to look behind the headlines and see what is real and not just sensationalism. It also helps explain why those who have the greatest day to day contact with Muslims and those living in areas with the highest Muslim populations are the most likely to be tolerant in regards to Islam.

excellent post.

 

[BadFish]

It certainly suggests that they agree with the Islamic State in principle.

No it doesn't! Ridiculous thinking that does nothing but make the situation worse.

 

[BigGully]

...... and here is the problem in my opinion. Do you actually think that banning people from wearing face coverings in Holland (or anywhere else for that matter) or taking peoples citizenships away from them is going to make the blindest bit of different to this problem? Like I said in an earlier post these are bandaid solutions to a massive problem that will amount to nothing more than a drop in the ocean. I would suggest that banning the burka in the UK would in fact cause more of the anti western sentiment your quote mentions

Really, If 'moderate Muslims' have fully integrated as we are often told then they are likely to share most people views, that at best its a little bit extreme and looks silly or at worst it represents an extreme version of Islam with all its associated bigotry,

 

[looney]

.. I would suggest that banning the burka in the UK would in fact cause more of the anti western sentiment your quote mentions

What if I was to tell you the argument of "Doing something will actually make matters worse", is infact not an argument, constructive or otherwise but just cheap old scaremongering.

 

[Soulman]

...... and here is the problem in my opinion. Do you actually think that banning people from wearing face coverings in Holland (or anywhere else for that matter) or taking peoples citizenships away from them is going to make the blindest bit of different to this problem? Like I said in an earlier post these are bandaid solutions to a massive problem that will amount to nothing more than a drop in the ocean. I would suggest that banning the burka in the UK would in fact cause more of the anti western sentiment your quote mentions

I suppose that is where we differ. Take the post you are replying to, re the police chiefs comments "Islamist propaganda is so potent it is influencing children as young as five and should be countered with intensified monitoring to detect the earliest signs of anti-western sentiment"..... appeasement and being the "blindest to this problem?".....well if certain people had been checked then the "influencing" of not just "young children"....might have been halted. So i will explain....listening and getting away with speeches (like Andy Choudary) coupled with indoctrination in certain mosques, has in the first case helped to spawn the killer of Lee Rigby and a certain Jihadi John, who were both followers.
The attitude of not taking away " their citizenships" and actually addressing the problem might work........because doing nothing (and even the Muslim police chief has backed this up) "is NOT going to make the blindest bit of different to this problem?

 

[BadFish]

As you say neither is wrong, but there are certain places where virtually completely covering the head is unacceptable, in court, in a passport control area, in a police station, a driving test, maybe at a job interview or signing on.......quite a few places where the face needs to be on display.

So just to clarify, why do you want to ban the burka?
Is it because of security concerns?
Is it to help combat extremist Islam?
Is it because you feel uncomfortable talking to someone when you can't see their face?

 

[BadFish]

I suppose that is where we differ. Take the post you are replying to, re the police chiefs comments "Islamist propaganda is so potent it is influencing children as young as five and should be countered with intensified monitoring to detect the earliest signs of anti-western sentiment"..... appeasement and being the "blindest to this problem?".....well if certain people had been checked then the "influencing" of not just "young children"....might have been halted. So i will explain....listening and getting away with speeches (like Andy Choudary) coupled with indoctrination in certain mosques, has in the first case helped to spawn the killer of Lee Rigby and a certain Jihadi John, who were both followers.
The attitude of not taking away " their citizenships" and actually addressing the problem might work........because doing nothing (and even the Muslim police chief has backed this up) "is NOT going to make the blindest bit of different to this problem?

But they are only talking about taking away citizenships of people overseas fighting for ISIS. So they will not be allowed back into the country. like I say statistically this is going to be a drop in the ocean in terms of stopping extremists.

You didn't mention how banning the Burka in the UK is going to help with any of this?

You are right though this is where we differ. I would advocate finding a way to lessen the anti western feelings that the bloke was talking about as i think this would lessen the number of people being influenced, lessen the number of people making speeches and lessen the number of extremists (rather than just stranding them somewhere else).

IMHO banning the Burka is going to increase the anti western feelings and make the situation worse.

 

[Soulman]

So just to clarify, why do you want to ban the burka?
Is it because of security concerns?
Is it to help combat extremist Islam?
Is it because you feel uncomfortable talking to someone when you can't see their face?

The first two.
I have made myself clear many times. I don't believe that full head coverings (and let's not include the burka atm) are allowed in court, passport offices, driving tests, police stations etc........so why should a burka, which we have established is NOT worn for religious purposes be ok. Ok for the streets and many other places, but not as the opening article stated in public buildings such as those mentioned. My opinion i 'm afraid.

 

[BadFish]

[/B]

Really, If 'moderate Muslims' have fully integrated as we are often told then they are likely to share most people views, that at best its a little bit extreme and looks silly or at worst it represents an extreme version of Islam with all its associated bigotry,

If they fully integrate into a free country then surely they should be free to wear what they want just like everybody else.Integrated into a society doesn't mean you have to share peoples views it just means you have to respect and accept them.

 

[looney]

If they fully integrate into a free country then surely they should be free to wear what they want just like everybody else.Integrated into a society doesn't mean you have to share peoples views it just means you have to respect and accept them.

Do you seriously mean accept or tolerate? Do you understand the meaning of those 2 words?