Ched Evans

[BigGully]

Why don't you ask someone who has been date raped about how it has affected them?

Actually there's evidence to suggest that date-rape is more diffcult to process than the kind of attack you are talking about becaused there is no memory of trauma to resolve and address.

But you carry on making sweeping assumptions. This "degrees of rape" makes me sick. It's all rape, all rapes affect people in different ways, all rapes are vile.

Is of course correct, but not to even acknowledge the vulnerability of a claim of rape in certain circumstances, when even a court of law might find it nearly impossible to know if consent was given.

 

[spring hall convert]

Is of course correct, but not to even acknowledge the vulnerability of a claim of rape in certain circumstances, when even a court of law might find it nearly impossible to know if consent was given.

It's not automatically wrong but you need to tread carefully. Some of the language used surrounding the victim on this thread is plain wrong.

What isn't alright is this "some rapes are worse than others line" that 2 posters are using on this thread. It's rape apologists behaviour; like the victim of a date rape should count themselves lucky they weren't raped "properly." It's vile.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

I do "get" where you're coming from and can see the difference in the scenario you have put forward. All to often we see on Crimewatch some barbaric portrayals of sex crimes.

My continued use of the term Convicted Rapist is my way of constantly reminding the posters on this thread who, for some reason, seem to believe the myths perpetuated by Evans own website and his merry band of Internet Warriors that Evans has in some way been wronged. A jury of 12 found him to unanimously guilty, two further applications to appeal have been turned down by two Judges. Now, unless there is some conspiracy against Evans that reaches to the highest levels of Justice I simply cannot see what possible reasons they may have to doubt the verdict and subsequent applications to appeal. Applications to appeal btw aren't appeals but I'm guessing you already know this.

Maybe Ched Evans somehow believed his status as a professional footballer granted him automatic consent.

Let's not forget here, a teenage girl has, quite literally, had her life ruined. She has had her identity exposed by Internet Trolls not just once but twice now, has been issued death threats, has had to move twice and had her identity changed twice.

My sympathies lie with her and her alone.

Excellent post.
Anyone with even a vague understanding of the law will understand that for a unanimous verdict of rape to be delivered the level of evidence is overwhelming.

For that to conviction to be then considered by appeal judges and to be upheld as sound means, again, that the burden of evidence must be very compelling.

What surprises me is that Evans has been released early when, clearly, he has not admitted his guilt or shown any remorse. I thought that awareness and acknowledgement of criminality was required for parole release.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Someone very close to me was raped by an ex boyfriend who was unwilling to accept the relationship was finished. I can testify that the scars left on her have lasted many years, to this day in fact.

Don't pity Evans.

 

[BigGully]

It is but you need to tread carefully. Some of the language used surrounding the victim on this thread is plain wrong.

What isn't alright is this "some rapes are worse than others line" that 2 posters are using on this thread. It's rape apologists behaviour; like the victim of a date rape should count themselves lucky they weren't raped "properly." It's vile.

Ok fine, so what is your view on the 'archetypal rapist' perhaps a random violent hooded attacker against say a couple that start having fully consensual sex but at some point during sex, she withdraws her consent, to me there is a difference.

Ultimately I agree that the male has a moral as well as a legal obligation to then stop, however my point is that this situation can sometimes lead to a physiological position where the male might be unlikely to cease the act, but even more so an opportunity for some females to say that consent was withdrawn even when most would recognise a fully consensual sexual situation.

 

[Hillian1]

Someone very close to me was raped by an ex boyfriend who was unwilling to accept the relationship was finished. I can testify that the scars left on her have lasted many years, to this day in fact.

Don't pity Evans.

Oh I don't not in the slightest.

But for balance, I knew a guy who was once accused of, charged and tried by Jury for rape, he was found not guilty, as were the previous 4 people she had accused.

I put the work knew in italics for a reason, he is no longer with us having taken his own life.

 

[spring hall convert]

This thread also demonstrates to me that whilst we've come a long way, we really need to educate people better on issues of consent.

Some men clearly think it is their god given right to tread a very fine line around consent, acting in a very predatory way towards vulnrable women, only to susequently fall back on the slut-shaming short skirt/ she was drunk argument. This is playing with fire.

We are all responsible for our own behaviour and we all know when we are skating on thin ice. Women rarely act in this predatory way so I really don't see why men need to.

Serious question now. Does anyone remember consent being covered in a satisfactory fashion at school? I'm early 30's and I don't.

 

[BigGully]

This thread also demonstrates to me that whilst we've come a long way, we really need to educate people better on issues of consent.

Some men clearly think it is their god given right to tread a very fine line around consent, acting in a very predatory way towards vulnrable women, only to susequently fall back on the slut-shaming short skirt/ she was drunk argument. This is playing with fire.

We are all responsible for our own behaviour and we all know when we are skating on thin ice. Women rarely act in this predatory way so I really don't see why men need to.

Serious question now. Does anyone remember consent being covered in a satisfactory fashion at school? I'm early 30's and I don't.

I think you will find that women especially in the context of celebrity are as passionately predatory as any man.

 

[spring hall convert]

Ok fine, so what is your view on the 'archetypal rapist' perhaps a random violent hooded attacker against say a couple that start having fully consensual sex but at some point during sex, she withdraws her consent, to me there is a difference.

Ultimately I agree that the male has a moral as well as a legal obligation to then stop, however my point is that this situation can sometimes lead to a physiological position where the male might be unlikely to cease the act, but even more so an opportunity for some females to say that consent was withdrawn even when most would recognise a fully consensual sexual situation.

I don't have one really. Having not been a victim of rape myself, I would find it very difficult to judge the individual scenarios. The complexities of the point in question would be for the CPS and ultimately a court of law to judge. I think that men all too often cloud their own reckless and irresponsible behaviour via the shame of their victim.

I'm intrigued by this though " can sometimes lead to a physiological position where the male might be unlikely to cease the act." Care to elaborate?

 

[spring hall convert]

I think you will find that women especially in the context of celebrity are as passionately predatory as any man.

To be clear this comment is about sex crime in general, not exclusively limited to this case. I see far less women trawling nightclubs trying to pick up blind drunk men for one night stands than vica-versa.

 

[spring hall convert]

Oh I don't not in the slightest.

But for balance, I knew a guy who was once accused of, charged and tried by Jury for rape, he was found not guilty, as were the previous 4 people she had accused.

I put the work knew in italics for a reason, he is no longer with us having taken his own life.

That's awful. I have also experienced the suicide of someone extremely close to me and it is a terrible pain. In the same way the law has failed women for generations, it appears to have failed this individual.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

My continued use of the term Convicted Rapist is my way of constantly reminding the posters on this thread who, for some reason, seem to believe the myths perpetuated by Evans own website and his merry band of Internet Warriors that Evans has in some way been wronged. A jury of 12 found him to unanimously guilty, two further applications to appeal have been turned down by two Judges. Now, unless there is some conspiracy against Evans that reaches to the highest levels of Justice I simply cannot see what possible reasons they may have to doubt the verdict and subsequent applications to appeal. Applications to appeal btw aren't appeals but I'm guessing you already know this.

Maybe Ched Evans somehow believed his status as a professional footballer granted him automatic consent.

Let's not forget here, a teenage girl has, quite literally, had her life ruined. She has had her identity exposed by Internet Trolls not just once but twice now, has been issued death threats, has had to move twice and had her identity changed twice.

My sympathies lie with her and her alone.

This.

 

[BigGully]

I don't have one really. Having not been a victim of rape myself, I would find it very difficult to judge the individual scenarios. The complexities of the point in question would be for the CPS and ultimately a court of law to judge. I think that men all too often cloud their own reckless and irresponsible behaviour via the shame of their victim.

I'm intrigued by this though " can sometimes lead to a physiological position where the male might be unlikely to cease the act." Care to elaborate?

Yes of course, shortly before ejaculation the male might find it nearly impossible to withdraw, I suspect you knew what I meant.

Therefor any woman that perhaps at that moment withdraws her consent ultimately condemns that man to rape or an accusation of it.

 

[spring hall convert]

Yes of course, shortly before ejaculation the male might find it nearly impossible to withdraw,

Are you suggesting that if the man was close, it would be ok for him to "finish off?" I don't really think the mans proximity to ejaculation to the scenario is particuarly relevant is it? The relevance is the reasonableness of the mans assumption of consent in this scenario.

I'm not an expert but in a case where the woman has already consented to sex with the man in this individual instance of intercourse, in order to change her mind she's have to vocalise that or make it pretty clear in another manner. Personally, I wouldn't care how close I was, that would be fairly likely to put me off.

The test is not if the woman did consent BUT if it was reasonable for the man to consider that she did.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Oh I don't not in the slightest.

But for balance, I knew a guy who was once accused of, charged and tried by Jury for rape, he was found not guilty, as were the previous 4 people she had accused.

I put the work knew in italics for a reason, he is no longer with us having taken his own life.

That's dreadful. Of course there are some very odd women around who cry rape for reasons best known to themselves. It's just a matter of luck sometimes whether or not a bloke finds himself wrongly accused.

The issue around Evans is, clearly, better evidenced than "he said, she said". He used deception to get to this girl then left the hotel via a fire escape. He doesn't deny that he shagged her but claims consent was gained...there is mobile phone records and video footage to testify to his guilt and he left the girl in a terrible state.

Your friend was, clearly, very unlucky but surely part of the police investigation should have flushed out her multiple false allegations from the past?

An allegation of rape is enough to blight many people's careers and family lives but, then again, so does rape.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Serious question now. Does anyone remember consent being covered in a satisfactory fashion at school? I'm early 30's and I don't.

I went to an all boys Jesuit school staffed by priests. "Not consenting" was being able to run faster than the brothers.

 

[The Merry Prankster]

Absolutely not ....

I think your response in someways mirrors the struggle, predominately male law makers and politicians seem to have with this crime, it seems that they have become totally passive with any suggestion which might prompt a case for rape without any significant voice that might challenge its validity.

Rape used to be a random violent crime that has, quite rightly now including date rape, domestic rape and others to protect women, but with this shift it makes ( mostly males ) vulnerable to an allegation of rape, even when it has been a wholly consensual.

If you take a moment to acknowledge the whole spectrum of individuals sexual preferences and then just change the end game, not with a cigarette or a cuddle, but with your partner suddenly and without notice claim she withdrew her consent at some point during your sex, you could be in real problems, even when the whole accurate details are offered to the jury, I am guessing that as long as she maintains that her consent was withdrawn, then it is just a matter of accepting her view, then you become a rapist.

If she has withdrawn her consent then from that point forward it's rape.

Actually the point was aimed at the 'degrees' of rape apologists, "he didn't punch her, so it's not so bad" types, however no consent, withdrawn consent or incapable of consent = rape.

 

[Sheebo]

Why don't you ask someone who has been date raped about how it has affected them?

Actually there's evidence to suggest that date-rape is more diffcult to process than the kind of attack you are talking about because there is no memory of trauma to resolve and address.

But you carry on making sweeping assumptions. This "degrees of rape" makes me sick. It's all rape, all rapes affect people in different ways, all rapes are vile.

But date rape would be a calculated deliberate vile act that had been calculated over a long period of time. Trust me I agree rape is rape and it's a sick disgusting crime. But does everyone who's convicted of the crime get the same amount of time inside? No they obviously don't. So surely different levels of a crime do exist in every crime possible? Pls don't take the moral high ground with me via I wasnt for a minute excusing anyone's actions in any given case...

 

[Sheebo]

I do "get" where you're coming from and can see the difference in the scenario you have put forward. All to often we see on Crimewatch some barbaric portrayals of sex crimes.

My continued use of the term Convicted Rapist is my way of constantly reminding the posters on this thread who, for some reason, seem to believe the myths perpetuated by Evans own website and his merry band of Internet Warriors that Evans has in some way been wronged. A jury of 12 found him to unanimously guilty, two further applications to appeal have been turned down by two Judges. Now, unless there is some conspiracy against Evans that reaches to the highest levels of Justice I simply cannot see what possible reasons they may have to doubt the verdict and subsequent applications to appeal. Applications to appeal btw aren't appeals but I'm guessing you already know this.

Maybe Ched Evans somehow believed his status as a professional footballer granted him automatic consent.

Let's not forget here, a teenage girl has, quite literally, had her life ruined. She has had her identity exposed by Internet Trolls not just once but twice now, has been issued death threats, has had to move twice and had her identity changed twice.

My sympathies lie with her and her alone.

Good post and glad you took my comments how they were meant! Fwiw I had no idea about the stuff about the victim in this case - that's really nasty to hear

 

[Steve.S]

Absolutely not ....

I think your response in someways mirrors the struggle, predominately male law makers and politicians seem to have with this crime, it seems that they have become totally passive with any suggestion which might prompt a case for rape without any significant voice that might challenge its validity.

Rape used to be a random violent crime that has, quite rightly now including date rape, domestic rape and others to protect women, but with this shift it makes ( mostly males ) vulnerable to an allegation of rape, even when it has been a wholly consensual.

If you take a moment to acknowledge the whole spectrum of individuals sexual preferences and then just change the end game, not with a cigarette or a cuddle, but with your partner suddenly and without notice claim she withdrew her consent at some point during your sex, you could be in real problems, even when the whole accurate details are offered to the jury, I am guessing that as long as she maintains that her consent was withdrawn, then it is just a matter of accepting her view, then you become a rapist.

This has to be the best post and actually demonstrating how precarious it could be for men. Chad Evans has been convicted of rape and it will follow him around for the rest of his life. What people do not seem to realize that it is very easy to find yourself on the wrong end of a accusation. It's not just through drink, can be drugs, break up of a relationship, or someone in depression. I was young once and remember my clubbing days and the beer goggle one night stands. Anyone who has had a one nightstand needs to be careful then. It might come back to haunt you. Rebound sex is another one. Does that mean I can complain about some of my one night stands, many a time I have woken up next to someone and thought why did I sleep with her, and maybe some women have woken up next to me thinking if only I could turn back the clock.
On a serious note. It's education that is needed although sadly when you have young footballers earning lots of money, you will have women throwing themselves at them, they need to realise that some of these women are vulnerable