Ched Evans

[JCL - the new kid in town]

They mentioned on the news today that the website set up by family and friends protesting his innocence appears to be registered to Ched himself and not by family/friends.

 

[Bold Seagull]

What others, and what have they said?

Evans and McDonald had at least two other mates having a laugh outside and taking photos through the window.

 

[JCL - the new kid in town]

There are many professionals that wouldn't be allowed to return to their previous professional status or rejoin their previous professional bodies. Not through the law or justice service, but through protection of that profession through the codes of conduct that each person agrees to abide by in being a professional person.

While they can't act retrospectively in this case, the PFA needs to review their own code for what is acceptable behaviour for the reputation of their profession from their members. They should not only be protecting their members, they should also be protecting the title 'Professional Footballer' and what that should represent.
.

In some driving jobs you're not allowed to drive if you don't have a clean licence, I wonder if football could go down a similar route and anyone with a criminal record is unable to continue that career. Yes it sounds a bit draconian but there seems to be more and more footballers who get on the wrong side of the law and perhaps it would make them think twice before drink/driving, getting into fights etc.

 

[Publius Ovidius]

Ched Evans maintains his claim to innocence in regard to his conviction for rape - something he has every right to do and as such can obviously not acknowledge that what he did was a crime.

However, and it is a big 'however', this is not a simple case of saying I didn't do it! He admits that he took advantage of a girl who was clearly drunk - the argument is only over whether or not she was so drunk that she couldn't consent to what happened.

Whether or not a crime was committed is surely irrelevant when it comes to expressing remorse - it would not hurt his appeal against conviction one iota if he apologised for his actions that night, called publicly for his 'supporters' to stop hounding the girl and accepted that his behaviour on that particular evening was not one that he is proud of. Even more so he should be calling on the others involved that evening to do the same.

The way his 'defence' has been presented so far suggests that he sees nothing wrong with the way he behaved and if the same 'opportunity' arose he would not behave any differently.

100% agree.

 

[Triggaaar]

There are many professionals that wouldn't be allowed to return to their previous professional status or rejoin their previous professional bodies. Not through the law or justice service, but through protection of that profession through the codes of conduct that each person agrees to abide by in being a professional person.

While they can't act retrospectively in this case, the PFA needs to review their own code for what is acceptable behaviour for the reputation of their profession from their members. They should not only be protecting their members, they should also be protecting the title 'Professional Footballer' and what that should represent.

Sounds like a good idea.

He has to accept that his behaviour was unacceptable to the majority of the public even if he believes he is innocent of the actual crime of rape.

If he is innocent of rape, then I believe the punishment he's already had is more than enough for the fact he's a dick.

Instead of driving round in his Hummer just looking like the arrogant footballer I have little doubt he is

So he has to change car now? And who's in a position to say he looks arrogant? He can't even play football now, I'd be surprised if he's being arrogant.

he could have spent the last 3 months rehabilitating his reputation and just getting down to a bit of hard graft..

If he is innocent, then he will feel incredibly wronged by society, and may not be in the mood for doing hard graft, after just serving prison time for a crime he didn't commit. Of course this is all 'if', but I'm just explaining that there's more than one side to a coin.

I'm going to stop now because, as David Conn has rightly pointed out, the debate around this, has been far too focused on Evans' rights and very little on those of the victim.

If that's what you think, why don't you talk about the rights of the victim? Which of her rights are being abused, and who isn't on her side in that?

 

[Bold Seagull]

Ched Evans maintains his claim to innocence in regard to his conviction for rape - something he has every right to do and as such can obviously not acknowledge that what he did was a crime.

However, and it is a big 'however', this is not a simple case of saying I didn't do it! He admits that he took advantage of a girl who was clearly drunk - the argument is only over whether or not she was so drunk that she couldn't consent to what happened.

Whether or not a crime was committed is surely irrelevant when it comes to expressing remorse - it would not hurt his appeal against conviction one iota if he apologised for his actions that night, called publicly for his 'supporters' to stop hounding the girl and accepted that his behaviour on that particular evening was not one that he is proud of. Even more so he should be calling on the others involved that evening to do the same.

The way his 'defence' has been presented so far suggests that he sees nothing wrong with the way he behaved and if the same 'opportunity' arose he would not behave any differently.

The hounding of the victim instigated by the website currently being investigated by the Attorney General's office said to be by his 'friends and family' that appears to be registered to Evans and funded by his girlfriends father. Especially in it's potential revealing of the victims identity that is a crime in itself. He could be charged with even more at this rate, even before a decision is made on whether he can be granted an appeal.

 

[Triggaaar]

Evans and McDonald had at least two other mates having a laugh outside and taking photos through the window.

Oh yes, thanks. Re he should call on those friends to stop hounding the girl: surely that depends on what happened that night. Assuming he raped her, then yes, he should. But what if he didn't, and his mates could clearly see that she was a voluntary participant? IF that were the case, then I don't see why he would.

Were the photos his friends took shown in court? And are they not being charged with accessory to rape?

 

[aolstudios]

Point me to the post that I said bad about her as I am sure I have said I think that he should be allowed to play football but cannot remember saying anything detrimental about her or her morals.

Look yourself, it's a long thread.
You made several posts. Referring to her more than once as 'not an innocent little girl'

 

[Bold Seagull]

Sounds like a good idea.

If he is innocent of rape, then I believe the punishment he's already had is more than enough for the fact he's a dick.

So he has to change car now? And who's in a position to say he looks arrogant? He can't even play football now, I'd be surprised if he's being arrogant.
If he is innocent, then he will feel incredibly wronged by society, and may not be in the mood for doing hard graft, after just serving prison time for a crime he didn't commit. Of course this is all 'if', but I'm just explaining that there's more than one side to a coin.

If that's what you think, why don't you talk about the rights of the victim? Which of her rights are being abused, and who isn't on her side in that?

No, of course he doesn't have to change car, or do any of things I've suggested. I'm not saying he should be forced to do these. Right now it is looking like he is unemployable as a footballer because clubs thinking of taking him on are facing a backlash from their fans and sponsors. He's toxic right now, whether he likes it or not.

Now Evans can do as you've said, not feel in the mood to graft, or review how he appears to society right now, or make a decision on what might rehabilitate his reputation in order to be employable again, show at least some contrition for his behaviour, take his website down, and attempt to be employable again. All this can still be done while maintaining his innocence and pursuing his appeal review.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Oh yes, thanks. Re he should call on those friends to stop hounding the girl: surely that depends on what happened that night. Assuming he raped her, then yes, he should. But what if he didn't, and his mates could clearly see that she was a voluntary participant? IF that were the case, then I don't see why he would.

Were the photos his friends took shown in court? And are they not being charged with accessory to rape?

I'm not going to explain the details of the case to you to save you looking for yourself. You asked a question to another poster about who else was involved, I answered that for you.

 

[Stato]

If that's what you think, why don't you talk about the rights of the victim? Which of her rights are being abused, and who isn't on her side in that?

Her right of anonimity which has been breached several times.
Her right to be treated as a victim is still being questioned despite the jury decision and conviction.
Her right to an apology for the treatment she has received.
Her right to live under her own name in her home town.
Her right to try to put this behind her and start to try to rebuild a normal life without constant reminders.

The last of these is not going to happen until football, the media and the internet shut up about Ched Evans, so as I feel culpable by continuing to contribute, that's it from me.

 

[Triggaaar]

Has everyone here read his website?

Her right of anonimity which has been breached several times.

There's not much to discuss there - surely we all agree that she has the right to anonymity?

Her right to be treated as a victim is still being questioned despite the jury decision and conviction.

I don't know her, she's anonymous, and as such I don't know how we can treat her as anything.

Her right to an apology for the treatment she has received.
Her right to live under her own name in her home town.
Her right to try to put this behind her and start to try to rebuild a normal life without constant reminders.

Is there anyone here that disagrees with her right to these things? If not, there's nothing to discuss.

The last of these is not going to happen until football, the media and the internet shut up about Ched Evans, so as I feel culpable by continuing to contribute, that's it from me.

The only way people would shut up about it all is if all parties were allowed to move on with their lives. It's the fact that he is not allowed to that's led to us discussing it.

 

[Creaky]

Oh yes, thanks. Re he should call on those friends to stop hounding the girl: surely that depends on what happened that night. Assuming he raped her, then yes, he should. But what if he didn't, and his mates could clearly see that she was a voluntary participant? IF that were the case, then I don't see why he would.

Were the photos his friends took shown in court? And are they not being charged with accessory to rape?

So even if she was a willing participant you don't think Evans should call on his friends to stop hounding this girl, (remember she hasn't accused him of any crime) - I think that says a lot about what you see as acceptable behaviour!

 

[SULLY COULDNT SHOOT]

Ched Evans maintains his claim to innocence in regard to his conviction for rape - something he has every right to do and as such can obviously not acknowledge that what he did was a crime.

However, and it is a big 'however', this is not a simple case of saying I didn't do it! He admits that he took advantage of a girl who was clearly drunk - the argument is only over whether or not she was so drunk that she couldn't consent to what happened.

Whether or not a crime was committed is surely irrelevant when it comes to expressing remorse - it would not hurt his appeal against conviction one iota if he apologised for his actions that night, called publicly for his 'supporters' to stop hounding the girl and accepted that his behaviour on that particular evening was not one that he is proud of. Even more so he should be calling on the others involved that evening to do the same.

The way his 'defence' has been presented so far suggests that he sees nothing wrong with the way he behaved and if the same 'opportunity' arose he would not behave any differently.

Thank you for that clarification. It does put the whole thing in a new light. The onus is certainly on him then to express some remorse. Still cant agree with the press campaign and hounding but he needs to do something to help himself rather than just playing the innocent.

 

[aolstudios]

Has everyone here read his website?

There's not much to discuss there - surely we all agree that she has the right to anonymity?

I don't know her, she's anonymous, and as such I don't know how we can treat her as anything.
Is there anyone here that disagrees with her right to these things? If not, there's nothing to discuss.

The only way people would shut up about it all is if all parties were allowed to move on with their lives. It's the fact that he is not allowed to that's led to us discussing it.

There are plenty of ways he can move on with his life, he just hasn't managed to find a football club that'll take him yet. As multiple people have pointed out, there are many, many professions that wouldn't accept you back in your old job, or indeed any job after being found guilty of rape (or many lesser crimes). If he were in one of those he'd have to find a different way too

 

[Bold Seagull]

Has everyone here read his website?

There's not much to discuss there - surely we all agree that she has the right to anonymity?

I don't know her, she's anonymous, and as such I don't know how we can treat her as anything.
Is there anyone here that disagrees with her right to these things? If not, there's nothing to discuss.

The only way people would shut up about it all is if all parties were allowed to move on with their lives. It's the fact that he is not allowed to that's led to us discussing it.

He is being allowed to move on with his life. It's only that he believes he can only move on through being a footballer. If he took a job and got on this his life, we wouldn't be discussing it, it probably wouldn't make the press. I'm getting really frustrated with this, but no one is preventing Ched Evans getting on with his life. No one. He just doesn't have an offer to be employed as a footballer. Tough shit.

Her identity has been revealed at least 4 times already. The Attorney General is taking the revealing of her identity very seriously and investigating this as a separate crime. There are clearly people who don't believe she has a right to anonymity and are going to great lengths to prevent that.

 

[spring hall convert]

The way his 'defence' has been presented so far suggests that he sees nothing wrong with the way he behaved and if the same 'opportunity' arose he would not behave any differently.

Bingo! I would argue that it's this, more than the original offence that has invoked people's ire.

I feel his defence is a bit "it's unfair because that's what the other lads get way with." Why should I get punished for it? He smells of arrogance, a personality trait the British public generally can't stand, especially in convicted rapists.

 

[spring hall convert]

But what if he didn't, and his mates could clearly see that she was a voluntary participant? IF that were the case, then I don't see why he would.

Because regardless of their thoughts, that is a criminal offence.

 

[mikeyjh]

Regardless of what occurred after this point, Evans' actions up to this point suggest that he views women in a predatory way. His response to the text can be seen as 'My mate has a girl in a hotel room. That's an opportunity for me,' rather than simply sending back something saying 'Have a good night' and going home to bed.

His assumption that he could turn up uninvited and become intimately involved with a complete stranger suggest that he was not viewing this woman as a person, but as an object. Regardless of whether he considers himself guilty of a crime, he has shown no public sign of acknowledgement that this attitude to women is unacceptable. The fact that his girlfriend has accepted his infidelity and supports him suggests that he is capable of showing the kind of respect necessary to have a relationship with a woman, but that he has chose not to show it to this woman, because he did not deem her worthy of any respect. The fact that he didn't know who she was when he recieved the text would suggest that he would have treated any woman in exactly the same way in these circumstances. Ergo, whether guilty or not, he has shown absolutely no respect for women, but has not acknowledged this or apologised. This kind of mea culpa would be the absolute minimum expected if he wishes to be allowed to work again in an industry which is subject to intense public scrutiny.

I'm going to stop now because, as David Conn has rightly pointed out, the debate around this, has been far too focused on Evans' rights and very little on those of the victim.

I think you make a very good point - There is a group that are touring football clubs giving advice to educate them on relationships with women, along the lines of avoiding this sort of behaviour. I'll try and find a link, but it was a very impressive, progressive approach to tackling how men see women. Based on this by the way, I think David Conn is entirely wrong - There is definitely a debate to be had about how men treat women, regardless of the legality of the act and while I fully support Evans' right to work, can't condone that sort of behaviour (again regardless of it's legality). Much as I didn't the Brighton players a few years back and certainly not the joker who posted a photo of his 'conquest' on here a few weeks back. i wouldn't not debate this, simply because some of the focus is on Evans' rights, it's still a valid and interesting question.

 

[Triggaaar]

So even if she was a willing participant you don't think Evans should call on his friends to stop hounding this girl, (remember she hasn't accused him of any crime)

Hasn't she? Are you sure about that? Surely she agreed to press charges? I don't know the details of what the friends are doing to the girl. If they have seen a miscarriage of justice, and their friend wrongfully sent to prison, it doesn't surprise me that they are aggrieved.

I think that says a lot about what you see as acceptable behaviour!

So what exactly do you think I see as acceptable? Given your comment, I think it's highly unlikely you have any idea.

He is being allowed to move on with his life. It's only that he believes he can only move on through being a footballer. If he took a job and got on this his life, we wouldn't be discussing it, it probably wouldn't make the press. I'm getting really frustrated with this, but no one is preventing Ched Evans getting on with his life. No one. He just doesn't have an offer to be employed as a footballer. Tough shit.

Absolute nonsense. Football would be a huge part of his life, so not being able to play it is preventing him living his life as he wants to. I don't have a lot of sympathy for him, given his actions, but if he is innocent then I can certainly understand him feeling he has the right to carry on with his career.

There are clearly people who don't believe she has a right to anonymity and are going to great lengths to prevent that.

Are any of the people that don't believe she has a right to anonymity posting in this thread? If so, who? If not, then there's nothing to discuss, we all agree that she should have that right.

Because regardless of their thoughts, that is a criminal offence.

You're saying it's a criminal offence for the people who witnessed what happened to 'hound' her. So have they been charged with that offence? If not, why not?