[Music] British v American Punk

[Herr Tubthumper]

Joe Strummer was living in a squat and in band called the 101ers, and was approached to be in a new band, the clash, that was being created. I grant you that the term "manufactured" is open to interpretation. But ultimately he left his band and ditched his friends to join a band that was put together to sell records under the "punk" image. It caused a lot anger with his old band who accused him of blanking them and selling out. There will be different interpretations of it, but some have said that early history haunted him throughout his career. In fairness to him, I think he came full circle in the end and when they reformed and supported the firefighters strike before his death, they were arguably playing with the punk ethos that they moved away from in the early days.

Their origins, to me, seem nothing more than a young and ambitious band which has a similarly minded manager.

 

[Return of the Rev]

I vote Peruvian punk was best.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

No, but if you're looking for the ultimate 'manufacturing' there was never a worse example than replacing Glen Matlock with probably the worst bass guitarist since Stuart Sutcliffe just because he looked like (and was) a gobbing, vicious little punk!

Yeah, that was embarrassing.

Steve Jones played all the bass on the album.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Their origins, to me, seem nothing more than a young and ambitious band which has a similarly minded manager.

Indeed.

Flip it around. How many 'rock/pop' artists can you name who were successful (a minimum of 3 top 10 LPs in the UK) who were entirely free from any sort of gimmick/image, marketing, or hype?

I can think of a few.

The Grateful Dead

Er, that's it.

I have never ever heard a single track by the Grateful Dead.
To my knowledge.
They may have been piped into a lift or a shitter without my awareness.
In which case, it went in one earhole and out the other.

 

[BN9 BHA]

Voted British because when I first got into music when I was 14 it was mostly British punk and new wave I listened to. This was after 1977 but I was lucky enough to have a good mate that got me into it, my parents didn’t listen to anything I liked.

I did have a few Ramones albums on vinyl when I was still a school though. Saw the Dead Kennedys when I was about 16.

Just look at my Apple Music albums and there are several by The Clash, also Albums by The Damned, Ruts, Buzzcocks, Stranglers and Magazine.
Also early Ultravox, The Jam and The Cure….not sure if these 3 were punk TBH, I would say Young Savage by Ultravox sounds punk to my ears.

 

[Weststander]

I'm impressed. You're ten years older than me (I assume - 49er), and it was easy for people brought up on the first wave of pop culture to be snooty about 'punk'. God know the number of time's I've heard blokes in sweaters explaining how 'it isn't music'

The blokes I knew until the day they die who most hated the 76/77 cultural/music revolution were Hungry Years types. I knew some in the sixth form, uni and at work, with tunnel vision for heavy metal, angry forever that the Pistols, Damned and Clash upset their 70’s paradise. Fuming that in their words untalented twats, without classical training or some musical background, had formed bands and were getting exposure.

I was still at primary school when it started, even then to me it symbolically ended a dull, old order of Mud, Quo, Brotherhood of Man. Over the next few months and years there was another way; Punk, Blondie, Stranglers, The Jam, XTC, what a time to be alive. And it was just the beginning. It was a reaction to fairly predictable, staid times, in the same way that in the late 50’s kids finally gained individuality from their parents.

 

[BrightonCottager]

Great synopsis, @Harry Wilson's tackle . I was lucky to be growing up in the London suburbs (The Lurkers were my local band) in the 70s and saw all the classic bands especially at the Marquee. Without a doubt, my favourite US band were the Ramones (& the UK bands apparently doubled their speed after seeing them at the Roundhouse in 75 or early 76) and The Damned were the best UK band. Their first album is sublime.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

Indeed.

Flip it around. How many 'rock/pop' artists can you name who were successful (a minimum of 3 top 10 LPs in the UK) who were entirely free from any sort of gimmick/image, marketing, or hype?

I can think of a few.

The Grateful Dead

Er, that's it.

I have never ever heard a single track by the Grateful Dead.
To my knowledge.
They may have been piped into a lift or a shitter without my awareness.
In which case, it went in one earhole and out the other.

Mild point of pedantry - The Grateful Dead have never had a top 10 album in the UK.
For that matter, they've only had one in the US, In The Dark somehow went to no. 6 in 1987.
I also don't think I've ever knowingly heard a Grateful Dead song.
And I'd argue that playing for an interminably long time with an enormous beard is itself a gimmick/image.

I am, in case it's not clear, agreeing with you.

 

[Garage_Doors]

No, but if you're looking for the ultimate 'manufacturing' there was never a worse example than replacing Glen Matlock with probably the worst bass guitarist since Stuart Sutcliffe just because he looked like (and was) a gobbing, vicious little punk!

Who got the gig after Matlock?

 

[Garage_Doors]

Yeah, that was embarrassing.

Steve Jones played all the bass on the album.

There is a tiny bit of Sid on bodies according to Bill price who produced it.

 

[Garage_Doors]

Great synopsis, @Harry Wilson's tackle . I was lucky to be growing up in the London suburbs (The Lurkers were my local band) in the 70s and saw all the classic bands especially at the Marquee. Without a doubt, my favourite US band were the Ramones (& the UK bands apparently doubled their speed after seeing them at the Roundhouse in 75 or early 76) and The Damned were the best UK band. Their first album is sublime.

Ramones ironically actually sped up as they got older, strangely,

Blitzkrieg Bop in 1975 was 175 BPM and by the end in 1996 its was 252 BPM
Personally prefer the original, slower version.

 

[GT49er]

Indeed.

Flip it around. How many 'rock/pop' artists can you name who were successful (a minimum of 3 top 10 LPs in the UK) who were entirely free from any sort of gimmick/image, marketing, or hype?

I can think of a few.

The Grateful Dead

Er, that's it.

I have never ever heard a single track by the Grateful Dead.
To my knowledge.
They may have been piped into a lift or a shitter without my awareness.
In which case, it went in one earhole and out the other.

Grateful Dead. No hype? NO F***ING HYPE? Geez - that band was made on 100% hippy far out yeh man hype! Perhaps you were too young!!!

...and you've listened to hours of Eastern European electro noise but never heard the Grateful Dead?

I've got a couple of Grateful Dead albums. TBH, they're fine, but in terms of west coast get-down-in-the-groove far out man music they're not, IMHO, as good as Jefferson Airplane, Quicksilver Messenger Service or Love - but in the right state of mind (cough, cough, know what I mean) a listen to St. Stephen or The Eleven off the Live Dead album can be both mind blowing and mind numbing at the same time!

Bit like Egg or Can (not musically, but as in mind-numbingly).

 

[GT49er]

Who got the gig after Matlock?

Sid Vicious. Couldn't play. Couldn't sing. (probably) killed his girlfriend, swore a lot, generally a potty-mouth, died from an overdose.


.....but boy, oh boy - what good publicity to have a punky looking bloke called Sid Vicious in a punk band, even if he couldn't play. Nice one Malcolm!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Sid Vicious. Couldn't play. Couldn't sing. (probably) killed his girlfriend, swore a lot, generally a potty-mouth, died from an overdose.


.....but boy, oh boy - what good publicity to have a punky looking bloke called Sid Vicious in a punk band, even if he couldn't play. Nice one Malcolm!

Sid was all a bit late in the day....not relevant. To me, anyway.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Great synopsis, @Harry Wilson's tackle . I was lucky to be growing up in the London suburbs (The Lurkers were my local band) in the 70s and saw all the classic bands especially at the Marquee. Without a doubt, my favourite US band were the Ramones (& the UK bands apparently doubled their speed after seeing them at the Roundhouse in 75 or early 76) and The Damned were the best UK band. Their first album is sublime.

I saw the Lurkers at the Nashville. First time I came close to a fight at a punk gig. Some entitled nob (longish hair, WTF, got precious in the moshing area and hit me. So I hit him back. I realized that night that it was not the same anymore. Nobody needed to fight down the front over personal space before that...

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The blokes I knew until the day they die who most hated the 76/77 cultural/music revolution were Hungry Years types. I knew some in the sixth form, uni and at work, with tunnel vision for heavy metal, angry forever that the Pistols, Damned and Clash upset their 70’s paradise. Fuming that in their words untalented twats, without classical training or some musical background, had formed bands and were getting exposure.

I was still at primary school when it started, even then to me it symbolically ended a dull, old order of Mud, Quo, Brotherhood of Man. Over the next few months and years there was another way; Punk, Blondie, Stranglers, The Jam, XTC, what a time to be alive. And it was just the beginning. It was a reaction to fairly predictable, staid times, in the same way that in the late 50’s kids finally gained individuality from their parents.

Stuart the Hungry Years DJ used to play Anarchy, till one night he flipped and smashed it. Worth a few bob, too. Twat. I stopped going after that. I mean, what the actual f***?

 

[GT49er]

Sid was all a bit late in the day....not relevant. To me, anyway.

He was a publicity stunt - not relevant to any of us, really. Maybe his mum, perhaps ......................?

 

[Crispy Ambulance]

He was a publicity stunt - not relevant to any of us, really. Maybe his mum, perhaps ......................?

His junkie mother found him to be a useful relevance!

 

[rebel51]

I remember my old man got me interested in punk in late70s listening to John peel from 10 till midnight most nights. Got into some amazing groups back then and subsequently saved up and got a massive passion for going to virgin records on queen's Road to buy my single and album vinyls. Ramones Road to ruin album yellow vinyl was one of my treasures along with 100s more.

My dad took me to see the jam in 78 at the dome(ear plugs most definitely in) blimey I was only 9. That really opened my eyes to my music passion up till this current day.Happy days.

 

[Seagull58]

I think bands like the pistols and the Clash were frauds and nothing more than manufactured bands. Obviously the were influential but only in terms of style. I think a lot of the bands that codified the politics were undoubtedly American.

The Clash were anything but a manufactured band. Yes, the Pistols were marketed well by McLaren but they were still the first real punk band imo. American punk doesn't compare at all to The Damned, Clash, Pistols, Buzzcocks, Ruts, X-Ray Spex etc.