[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

I can see that you are an intelligent person , but i have not said anywhere i blame the immigrants just the fact there is no control ,so you have tried to steer the argument in a certain direction based on your presumption of the points i am making .

I have not said that you blame immigrants, but I accept there is an implication that you might be someone that does, and I am happy to apologise for that. I got the distinction between immigrants and immigration, I did understand your point was regarding the numbers, and not the people, but the point about foreign aid in conjunction with the numbers of migrants led me to suspect that you may have a less than charitable view of foreigners.

 

[portlock seagull]

I have not said that you blame immigrants, but I accept there is an implication that you might be someone that does, and I am happy to apologise for that. I got the distinction between immigrants and immigration, I did understand your point was regarding the numbers, and not the people, but the point about foreign aid in conjunction with the numbers of migrants led me to suspect that you may have a less than charitable view of foreigners.

It’s always been about numbers for me and the timeframes. I don’t like the way we’ve had to accept millions of people from other countries in such short timeframes and any objections to are shouted down with lazy accusations of racism. We seem to be the only country on this planet that’s scarred to celebrate our culture and heritage but must embrace every other. I don’t know why or when it started, but I’m just as proud of my country as all the immigrants who come here and can’t wait to wave their flag, bang on about their food and drink, music, dance, art, icons and so forth whilst we’re encouraged not to for fear of offence. Well, I’m about to strike a blow back for Auld Albion when I say Scones with jam and cream trumps an eclair every time. Close call, but it does!

 

[Baldseagull]

No, I meant Eurosceptics cobbling together a deal that completely undermined the main reasons for joining which is the direct comparison to what many remainers are arguing for now. Like the EU would let us join with a 'have your cake and eat' it opt out membership ….

Back to reality, the people marching can't quite come to terms with democractic first principles (results of elections get enacted when they meet the neccassery criteria as you would expect if you had won). Of course they will find all sorts of conspiracies to attempt to justify their sense of entitlement. The other side lied – but so did our side … electoral law was broken to no desernable effect as it has been before with no re run … the criteria on who can vote is never a real issue until you lose ... funding, you have a big advantage from all sorts of sources … foreign influence, like Obama 'back of the queue' and the European , global elite all weighing in behind remain. If's and but's … remain had the big spending advantage, the government machine behind them , 'experts galore', the UK , european and global elites all in your corner and they f'd it up.

That assumes I would have called an election in the middle of negotating our exit and if I had I would have thrown away a huge poll lead and my majority against a far left numpty therefore becoming reliant on the DUP. But you are right if I were a remainer trying to enact Brexit which I didn't really believe in, with a minority government who mainly voted remain relying on the DUP in a Remain MP dominated parliament it was probably doomed to fail. Not so much a bad proposition just parliament not really willing to enact the will of the people and bad parliamentary arithmetic.

I think you have ignored a rather major issue, not put there by remainers to thwart Brexit, the Good Friday Agreement.
For a large number of those who voted leave, Mays deal fits their main reason, ending freedom of movement, you have to accept that what you bought into isn't what every other leaver bought into, and if we get asked to approve a deal or one of a number of deals, others might prefer a type of leave that you might actually find worse than remaining.

 

[Baldseagull]

Opinions are like orifices-we all have them,but very few are alike.

And yours stinks.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

If I could see that a million Leavers were passionate about Brexit and they had five and half million signatures on a petition calling for May to get the f*ck out of the EU pronto then at least it would be a demonstration that the 2016 Referendum was something other than a protest vote against Cameron / immigration / austerity / neglect.

It just feels like Leavers are awfully quiet.

But leavers got off their arses and voted to leave. According to some commentators many remainers didn't both to vote - particularly the younger generations. Yet now you expect leavers to go on some pointless march or sign some pointless petition to counteract those too lazy to have voted originally ?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The EU's Chief negotiator answers are 'waffle' ?

Customs union or hard border (same as for the last 3 years)?

Cue waffle again

As is always the case with you, another question avoided.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Now you know that immigration can be controlled whilst we are part of the EU, would you still vote to leave? If so, why?

So how do we control EU migrants coming here that do have jobs ? Ahhh .....

 

[pastafarian]

That is the governments fault. They can send EU nationals back to their country of origin if they are not working, but the UK, unlike other EU countries have put no measures in place to do this.

Simply not true that you can send EU nationals home if they are not working, EU citizens have the right to retire and live here (not working), EU citizens have the right to study here (not working) EU citizens have the right to a family life here and have family members be economically inactive(not working), there are various ways EU citizens can be economically inactive, not working, and have the right to remain here.
EU Jobseekers themselves cannot be turfed out simply for being unemployed. In each individual case it must be proven that not only are they not seeking work but also proven they have no chance of ever being employed in the future.
The small numbers of EU jobseekers playing the system you must be talking about ( unless you want to say the UK is now so overrun and awash with unemployed EU jobseekers taking the piss that clamping down on them will significantly change the numbers of EU citizens being here and alter the whole EU immigration dynamic) are irrelevant when compared to the mass EU immigration from free movement and is just a tool to deflect away from addressing real actual immigration controls.
Saying simply we can send EU citizens back home if they are not working is lazy and wrong.

Now you know that immigration can be controlled whilst we are part of the EU, would you still vote to leave? If so, why?

If EU immigration can be controlled whilst we are a part of the EU can you share a link to the existing EU mechanism, which you must be talking about, that permits us whilst being members of the EU, to control EU immigration permanently by implementing onto EU citizens, that wish to come here to live and work, the requirement of obtaining permission to enter before crossing the border (ie a visa) and which permits quotas on certain tier groups to be applied to EU citizens such as we currently can do with non EU citizens. You know, real immigration control, not chasing jobseekers up months after they have crossed the border anyway.
A handful of your fellow remainers tried searching for this EU mechanism that gives us these standard immigration controls enjoyed by numerous countries across the planet who are not in the EU, which we apparently don’t bother using, but oddly gave up looking.
The treaty, directive or regulation that contains this EU mechanism will suffice if you are having problems linking to the mechanism itself.

 

[pastafarian]

But leavers got off their arses and voted to leave. According to some commentators many remainers didn't both to vote - particularly the younger generations. Yet now you expect leavers to go on some pointless march or sign some pointless petition to counteract those too lazy to have voted originally ?

I am finding this new argument from remainers that leavers are now required to show they want to Leave by marching and signing petitions a bit odd. I was under the impression we could simply vote and expect those who promised to adhere to the vote and respect the outcome who had the power to implement the vote simply carrying out the instructions they were given. No one told me i had to vote and then march too and further petition also to make my democratic vote valid.

 

[Lever]

But leavers got off their arses and voted to leave. According to some commentators many remainers didn't both to vote - particularly the younger generations. Yet now you expect leavers to go on some pointless march or sign some pointless petition to counteract those too lazy to have voted originally ?

....or are leavers now the lazy ones?

 

[pastafarian]

I don’t think anything sums up the nations current mood on Brexit better than this.

[tweet]1109407172537081856[/tweet]

Have you never had a sing song on the train/coach on the way to an important away game? 'Here we go' or the like? Obviously it's a new song that hasn't yet caught on hence the need for lyrics handed out.

Nope, I have never been involved in collectively singing an utterly cringe song terribly whilst reading the lyrics from a crib sheet whilst impersonating a bunch of middle class kumbaya spanners when i have been going to an away game. Not once.

The comments taking the piss to this video are a scream
https://twitter.com/slinkyswimmer/status/1109407172537081856

There’s a petition going now to get them to release it as a single wth funds raised going to the people’s vote campaign.

Really?....Brilliant….thats even funnier.
Whats the petition link, you sure you are not making that up, please dont be making that up....…. I want to sign it.

 

[pastafarian]

Thatcher certainly wouldn't have given us a referendum. She regarded them as enemies of democracy, one of the few views she shared with Clement Attlee. Hitler, on the other hand, was terrifically keen.

Thatcher wasn’t parliament in 2015 when they did vote overwhelmingly to give us a referendum. You could have said “ Switzerland on the other hand, are terribly keen” but you didn’t, you went with Hitler…….well played, Bravo!
No doubt you are against referendums, just as well you are not one of these hypocrites saying we should never use them but are calling for another one now…..eh?

 

[pastafarian]

But leavers got off their arses and voted to leave. According to some commentators many remainers didn't both to vote - particularly the younger generations. Yet now you expect leavers to go on some pointless march or sign some pointless petition to counteract those too lazy to have voted originally ?

Its worth noting, that during the Referendum Bill debate in 2015 when the inclusion of 16 and 17 year olds in the vote was being debated before it was democratically voted against it was pointed out by many members that before including 16 and 17 year olds in the franchise more should be done to first adress the poor turnout of 18-24 yr olds who cant be arsed to vote.

 

[GrizzlingGammon]

Simply not true that you can send EU nationals home if they are not working, EU citizens have the right to retire and live here (not working), EU citizens have the right to study here (not working) EU citizens have the right to a family life here and have family members be economically inactive(not working), there are various ways EU citizens can be economically inactive, not working, and have the right to remain here.
EU Jobseekers themselves cannot be turfed out simply for being unemployed. In each individual case it must be proven that not only are they not seeking work but also proven they have no chance of ever being employed in the future.
The small numbers of EU jobseekers playing the system you must be talking about ( unless you want to say the UK is now so overrun and awash with unemployed EU jobseekers taking the piss that clamping down on them will significantly change the numbers of EU citizens being here and alter the whole EU immigration dynamic) are irrelevant when compared to the mass EU immigration from free movement and is just a tool to deflect away from addressing real actual immigration controls.
Saying simply we can send EU citizens back home if they are not working is lazy and wrong.




If EU immigration can be controlled whilst we are a part of the EU can you share a link to the existing EU mechanism, which you must be talking about, that permits us whilst being members of the EU, to control EU immigration permanently by implementing onto EU citizens, that wish to come here to live and work, the requirement of obtaining permission to enter before crossing the border (ie a visa) and which permits quotas on certain tier groups to be applied to EU citizens such as we currently can do with non EU citizens. You know, real immigration control, not chasing jobseekers up months after they have crossed the border anyway.
A handful of your fellow remainers tried searching for this EU mechanism that gives us these standard immigration controls enjoyed by numerous countries across the planet who are not in the EU, which we apparently don’t bother using, but oddly gave up looking.
The treaty, directive or regulation that contains this EU mechanism will suffice if you are having problems linking to the mechanism itself.

Enjoy.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32004L0038&#d1e1318-77-1

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Well it's all going swimmingly in a kind of drowning sort of way. No-one really knows what's going to happen, although those German car manufacturers have yet to tell the EU to give us a good deal. The trouble is that no-one knows what a good deal looks like.

I'm very doubtful that the indicative vote will yield a winning option. If it does then it'll be (I think) a soft or slow Brexit. But I simply can't imagine the PM (aka the human barnacle) taking it forward to the EU. This could trigger a no-confidence vote in the Commons and a General Election. But who in the interim would represent us at (or rather to) the EU? - would we occupy an empty chair? I've got a horrible feeling that somewhere along the ride the tribal reflexes of the Labour and tory MPs will somehow conspire to block the process (maybe reflexively rather than deliberately). And if we have a GE then the waters could end up even muddier.

We are in a terrible mess. Try think of anyone in Parliament who would be trusted by a majority to take this forward either before or even after an Election...………………….*


*bring back that tw*t Cameron to sort out the mess he got us into?

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Thatcher wasn’t parliament in 2015 when they did vote overwhelmingly to give us a referendum. You could have said “ Switzerland on the other hand, are terribly keen” but you didn’t, you went with Hitler…….well played, Bravo!
No doubt you are against referendums, just as well you are not one of these hypocrites saying we should never use them but are calling for another one now…..eh?

Of course Mrs T. was in favour of us staying in the EEC in '75, was an architect of the Single Market and was 100% behind the enlargement of the EU.

 

[pastafarian]

Enjoy.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32004L0038&#d1e1318-77-1

Righto, so when asking you to link the EU mechanism that permits us whilst being members of the EU, to control EU immigration permanently by implementing onto EU citizens, that wish to come here to live and work, the requirement of obtaining permission to enter before crossing the border (ie a visa) and which permits quotas on certain tier groups to be applied to EU citizens such as we currently can do with non EU citizens. You know, real immigration control, not chasing jobseekers up months after they have crossed the border anyway……you decide to link a directive which doesn’t show this mechanism.

Do you need more time?

 

[pastafarian]

Of course Mrs T. was in favour of us staying in the EEC in '75, was an architect of the Single Market and was 100% behind the enlargement of the EU.

She was also famously against ceding further powers to Brussels, the commission and its parliament......im sure you remember the speach.

 

[GrizzlingGammon]

Righto, so when asking you to link the EU mechanism that permits us whilst being members of the EU, to control EU immigration permanently by implementing onto EU citizens, that wish to come here to live and work, the requirement of obtaining permission to enter before crossing the border (ie a visa) and which permits quotas on certain tier groups to be applied to EU citizens such as we currently can do with non EU citizens. You know, real immigration control, not chasing jobseekers up months after they have crossed the border anyway……you decide to link a directive which doesn’t show this mechanism.

Do you need more time?

It contains all you need.

 

[pastafarian]

It contains all you need.

So you still cant find the EU mechanism that permits the immigration visa and quota controls whilst still being in the EU.
Do you need more time to search?