Another UKIP loon - mainstream party voters should be hung for treason

[Buzzer]

You don't really get what I'm saying, so I've put some statistics below for you to analyse regarding this. The USA and Australia have considerably higher rates of immigration than we do and that includes unskilled workers. Also included Spain to hopefully address that query too. Again, countries need population growth if there is to be economic growth and the only way to achieve that is immigration - it is not just about bringing in skilled workers, in capitalism unskilled workers are just as important for the economy.


Population growth rate (new immigrants in 2007) population

Australia 1.8% (180,000) 22 million
Spain 1.7% (700,000) 47 million
USA 1.0% (1,300,000) 320 million
UK 0.7% (237,000) 63 million
Italy 0.7% (270,000) 60 million
Japan -0.0% (170,000) 127 million

I do get what you're saying but simply put, I think you are wrong to say that immigration is a prerequisite to economic growth and I've stated the reasons why I think you are wrong. I've also pointed out that I fully understand that capitalist countries bring in workers at all skill levels and that I didn't think there was any dispute about that.

I must confess that I'm puzzled by those stats you've pulled out though. Why use figures dating back to 2007? Where do they come from? Why not the most recent figures from the OECD, Eurostat or the WorldBank? What are those stats trying to say because as far as I can see they don't have any correlation with economic growth because Spain and Italy would be bottom of that pile and I presume those figures are net population growth rates not taking into account the very real brain drain that those countries are experiencing.

They also don't tie in with the latest Eurostat figures who have Spain as showing a -3.5% population growth (i.e. net emigration) up to 2012, their latest figures available and we know the situation is getting worse in these countries.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

And this in the London Evening Standard. You really couldn't make it up!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/labo...or-for-racist-cameron-caricature-7242055.html

Good find MKS...racism is very selective...a DJ plays a very old song...which contained the 'N' word and is sacked...yet a group of talented black guys dress up on stage with white masks and dance....nobody says anything,c'mon all you "I'm easily offended on other peoples behalf" brigade,let's hear you go on about that...this racism culture is of no importance to many... they are just trying to say "Look at me, I'm a good guy". I don't care what a persons race,religion is...( I do find it difficult with a Palace supporter) it's the person themselves that matter...there is good and bad amongst all people.

 

[Nibble]

Good find MKS...racism is very selective...a DJ plays a very old song...which contained the 'N' word and is sacked...yet a group of talented black guys dress up on stage with white masks and dance....nobody says anything,c'mon all you "I'm easily offended on other peoples behalf" brigade,let's hear you go on about that...this racism culture is of no importance to many... they are just trying to say "Look at me, I'm a good guy". I don't care what a persons race,religion is...( I do find it difficult with a Palace supporter) it's the person themselves that matter...there is good and bad amongst all people.

3 things about that picture of Cameron blacked up

1: The complainants are clearly missing the point about Black and White Minstrels and what it is trying to say.
2: It was a bad idea to post it given how clearly it would get people's backs up.
3: It doesn't negate UKIP's record of bonkers output.

 

[Acker79]

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/14/VIDEO-UKIP-rally-footage-and-protests

On one side of the road you have UKIP supporters minding their own business, peacefully exercising their democratic rights - on the other, you have "anti"-facists employing intimidation tactics. Why is it the supposedly intolerant UKIP appear far more tolerant than their opponents?

TV and newspapers, by irresponsibly whipping up anti-UKIP sentiment and creating a culture of fear, are putting lives at risk. This is becoming a political Helm's Deep, UKIP against the media and entire LIB-LAB-CON establishment.

Oh and https://fullfact.org/factchecks/romanian_criminals_UK_Britain-28799

"Romania does seem to find a particularly large proportion of their citizens in the UK arrested by the Met police."

"when taken together with the prison population figures, it does seem reasonable to conclude that Romania has an unusually high number of its citizens involved in crime given the size of the Romanian population in the UK."

This is what Farage was actually getting at when comparing German and Romanian neighbours btw.

I am not for one second agreeing with everything that his party says or does, but I also accept that with the parties views on tighter immigration, and a serious chance of success in this election, the nutters on the right side of the spectrum will come to UKIP and throw their support behind it.

I believe that wanting severe restrictions against immigration is a valid political position. If you think that that's racist or xenophobic then you're free to think that. However don't mind others not thinking that as they're going by the actual definition of those words.

I disagree (I know that's not your conclusion). There was a sentiment that the higher than proportional population of black men in prison was an indication that black men are more inclined to be criminals.

But when people delved deeper they found that the cause of a lot of crime was poverty (http://www.poverties.org/poverty-and-crime.html), that poverty affected a higher than proportional number of black people. (http://www.jrf.org.uk/topic/poverty-and-ethnicity)

Further, that there some laws, at least in america, that are racist in that being found guilty of one possession of crack cocaine (most crack cocaine users are black), was a crime that carried a prison sentence, whereas powdered cocaine (most powdered cocaine users are white) only carried a fine. (http://www.csdp.org/edcs/page30.htm)

You then also often have to deal with race bias in juries (http://ase.tufts.edu/psychology/documents/pubsSommersRaceCourtroom.pdf), and given that article also mentions arrests, it's also worth noting the racial bias of stop and search and arrests (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-of-race-bias-in-stop-and-search-figures.html).

Given such institutional racism, I would argue it was - at best - unsafe to suggest larger prison population of any ethnic minority is an indication that people from that ethnic minority were more inclined to crime.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

And this in the London Evening Standard. You really couldn't make it up!

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/labo...or-for-racist-cameron-caricature-7242055.html

What amazes me about that is that when a respected Tory Councillor around here ( Dawn Barnett ) supported Golliwogs being old in a shop all hell broke lose from the Greens and minorities within the council. Even a gay WHITE councillor worker and his white boyfriend wrote official complaints. It would appear it's only racist if you are right wing - left winmg people can't possibly be racist.

 

[Buzzer]

The reason I dated them back to 2007 is for that reason, during the recession these kinds of statistics count for very little as they are full of anomalies, for example like you say in Spain there has been a massive diaspora of young Spanish people leaving the country to find work abroad. For your reference, I got the stats individually from Google, so various sources - they may or may not be entirely accurate, but they should be about right enough to make my point valid, check them if you wish.

I'm still unsure as to what you are trying to prove by cherry-picking population movements for a random year. What's the link to economic performance? You haven't stated any nor have you proven anything by those stats other than what was the net migration for 2007.

I think we may have to agree to disagree here, but remember in capitalism all people have an economic worth. Hundreds of thousands of new unskilled workers is not only important but potentially crucial for a capitalist economy due to the boost in tax and, more importantly, economic growth that all the extra people bring with them. This is a fundamental flaw in capitalism, without economic growth you have recession, which is obviously catastrophic for the economy as we have seen since 2008.

For the last time, unfettered immigration is not necessarily vital for economic growth. If it were the case then the USA would just open up its borders for everyone. Your 'fundamental flaw in capitalism' is nothing more than your fundamental misunderstanding of capitalism and the causes and effects of recession which are many. I'm also curious to know how you think Marxist economies would be immune to negative economic growth and its effects on a populace.

No economy can grow forever without actual growth, so the only solution capitalism has left for Western nations is to increase population.

Of course economies can't grow without growth - it's a truism. It means nothing. And Western capitalist societies have many, many ways of increasing economic growth without even considering population growth. You need to go back and read Marx and Engels if you think it's the only way left. They identified loads of ways.

I think you're right on one thing though, we're going to have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid I don't tend to watch partisan Youtube videos cited as evidence on here.

 

[Footsoldier]

FFS Dave. None of those are actual UKIP candidates or supporters, remember? they are all 'sleeper cell Labour / Tory activists, masquerading as UKIPs, to dis-credit them. Come on Dave - we've covered this already.

Have a THINK, eh.

You know it as well. Typical leftie denying the tactics the three main parties are using. Fear not leftie boy, UKIP will be victorious come Thursday evening and you all can crawl back into your shells.

 

[The Spanish]

the beach cafe in saltdean has been given a massive shot in the arm after being taken over by spaniards. great food down there now. obviously drawn to san fran saltdean due to its iberian vibe.

 

[Don Quixote]

No such thing as the 'looney left' - it's tabloid fabrication.

Fact. But some strange people like to believe the country is full of 'lefties' but it isn't.

 

[cunning fergus]

I am completely unclear of the point you're trying to make - But your second sentence is factually incorrect, I don't see 68% anywhere, but 67% of those polled THOUGHT that immigration had been a bad thing over the last 10 years.

I do like the point in the poll about net migration though, and I have a great idea for how to achieve the zero - Kick out UKIP and all their unpleasant supporters, let them live on a island somewhere populated only by white british men - They can have their own trains where you can only speak English, their own schools where there's no brown people or gayers and then can even make sure that there's no dirty romanians next door living in squalor trying to better themselves.

You are completely unclear because you cannot conceive that the majority of people in this country (by a significant margin) consider immigration to be a problem.

It is telling that rather than understand why immigration is so unpopular with the UK electorate you would rather dismiss their opinions, and happily “kick out UKIP and their unpleasant supporters” to an island somewhere “populated only by white British men”.

Oh the irony………………….don’t stop please……………….really.................oh my aching sides.

 

[Grombleton]

You know it as well. Typical leftie denying the tactics the three main parties are using. Fear not leftie boy, UKIP will be victorious come Thursday evening and you all can crawl back into your shells.

Does that mean if UKIP don't, then you'll crawl back into yours?

 

[cunning fergus]

I agree but that's no reason to vote UKIP. Farage is an ex-investment banker for God's sake, what makes you think he's got our best interest at heart any more so than the career politicians?

OK I will give you one reason...................

He has not been in power, therefore he has not taken the country into an illegal war at the cost of many thousands of lives and millions of pounds of taxpayers money.

There are many MPs (across the political divide) who are standing for re-election who supported that act of lunacy...............

But go on................knock yourself out about what someone from UKIP just tweeted about a Romanian.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Does that mean if UKIP don't, then you'll crawl back into yours?

Given every poll has them in first or second place I think he's on solid ground.

 

[portlock seagull]

I've voted for all mainstream parties in my time, definitely a floating voter. There's never a party who I completely agree with on every subject so I tend to focus on 2 or 3 things like education, health etc.

If I believe immigration is a main subject this time and that to have controlled immigration we should first have control of our borders...which party should I be voting for and why?

 

[Acker79]

You are completely unclear because you cannot conceive that the majority of people in this country (by a significant margin) consider immigration to be a problem.

I think the issue is why do they think it is a problem? Have they looked at the numbers, studied and digested how many people come in legally, how many are estimated to come in illegally, what they add to the economy, what they take from the economy, how much of an affect they have on crime, studied how much is being spent on each immigrant, verses how much each immigrant brings in, the wider reaching benefits of migrations - the international relations and connections formed by treaties/simply having businesses in more than one country feeding into both, and drawing a conclusion from all of this, or are they opposed to immigration because the Daily Mail tells them so.

Are they just saying it because they don't really care about politics, but want to seem intelligent and involved so claim it just because they see it in the press? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_bias

 

[daveinprague]

You believe Twitter,Blogs,FB ? Who was your father Hans Christain Anderson ..he was quite good at fairy stories....Where is the evidence...not what someones personal opinion is...can you come up and prove that UKIPs policy is racist...

oh, so, because its twitter, blogs and fb...theres no validity? haha..you go with that...


AND AGAIN....if you care to check, and we have been through this before, you will not find me mention their policies...what I have
consistanly said, and what Kippers want to divert attention away from...is the party is full of racists, homophobics, neo Nazis (love the Hastings candidates tattoos). and mysoginists.

 

[mikeyjh]

You are completely unclear because you cannot conceive that the majority of people in this country (by a significant margin) consider immigration to be a problem.

It is telling that rather than understand why immigration is so unpopular with the UK electorate you would rather dismiss their opinions, and happily “kick out UKIP and their unpleasant supporters” to an island somewhere “populated only by white British men”.

Oh the irony………………….don’t stop please……………….really.................oh my aching sides.

I can conceive that a lot of people consider immigration to be 'a problem', but I also think they are guided by a predominantly right wing press and are wrong. I

take it you don't like my idea of an island utopia for the UKIPs?

 

[Guinness Boy]

You're right, UKIP do plan to scrap Human Rights Act (incidently an act we helped to set up)...yes they plan to scrap it and replace it with a British Bill of Human Rights...which will be run by elected judges from Britain...not from an unelected european lawyer.
More prisons,what's wrong with that...about time some of these criminals feared prison instead of going on a holiday...maybe they'd think twice instead of going to court,getting a suspended sentence and a slap on the wrist and a £1 out of the poor box.

Actually the convention on human rights was drafted in to UK Law by the democratically elected Labour Party. This was to allow people to be able to file under the act in UK courts without having to go to court in Strasbourg - a court which is overseen by the Council of Europe who drafted the original convention. This may be UKIP policy but it's got nothing to do with the EU or unelected European lawyers.

 

[pastafarian]

I can conceive that a lot of people consider immigration to be 'a problem', but I also think they are are wrong.

There is the debate in a nutshell.

Some people do not believe there is a problem with the current system of immigration.

Every poll will tell them a majority of the population think immigration is an issue.

the debate should in theory be simple,the pros and cons of immigration policies and their relation to the European Union.

The problem is there is no debate,there is a concerted effort to avoid it at all costs.Mud slinging is the easy option..........but only in the short term!

 

[Milton Keynes Seagull]

oh, so, because its twitter, blogs and fb...theres no validity? haha..you go with that...


AND AGAIN....if you care to check, and we have been through this before, you will not find me mention their policies...what I have
consistanly said, and what Kippers want to divert attention away from...is the party is full of racists, homophobics, neo Nazis (love the Hastings candidates tattoos). and mysoginists.

Calm down dear! You're getting so worked up that you are not paying attention to your grammar and spelling. But don't worry I am not a grammar Nazi! I'm sure you're a decent chap, after all you are an Albion fan. I will be paying yet another visit to Prague in the near future. Perhaps we could meet up? You could either "smash me" as a racist/fascist or alternatively get smashed with me in one of the many excellent Czech bars, talking about the Albion and the one thing we know we both share in common.