Andy Flower-v-Kevin Pietersen.

[Leekbrookgull]

For all but the squad and England management, this whole topic is subject to rumour, inference (at best) and plain old speculation, but there is enough consistency in the rumours to suggest that KP’s presence unsettles others in the team.
I certainly don’t have any inside info, but don’t think it’s as simple as having to pick a guy because he has the highest average. Even if that one player will get you 15 more runs per innings than the next best batsman, if his presence means the rest of the team (or a significant part of it) is just 10% off their game, the net result is detrimental to the team as a whole.

I’d personally favour getting rid of both Flower and KP – a fresh start all round. If a suitable replacement can be found, I’d also be in favour of a new captain. Cook just seems too conservative and, frankly, too nice. However, I don’t really see a viable alternative right now – Broad would be the obvious contender with his T20 role, but I don’t think he’s ready.

Tend to share alot in what you say as to K/Ps batting you will never change that for me it is the man himself,his dispute with Moores his behaviour towards Andrew Strauss,when Hampshire no county really wanted him and he wanted to stay near London to remain part of the 'Up west set' (i believe Surrey had him forced on them ?) and when Hampshire won T20 with a young side of up and coming players Dominic Cork did not want him around ?

 

[Bold Seagull]

I don't see any criticism of Goochs' batting career at all in what Hiney said, just pointed out that he played in a different era. That's how I read it, anyway.

Maybe, it read a bit like a criticism though. He played some of his best cricket in his late 30's well into the '90's. The demands then weren't so different to now. I'll always remember his 333. He scored that at a SR of 68.65. In Cook's 25 centuries, he's only bettered that SR once. So it was hardly like Gooch pondered at 2 runs an over.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Gooch was a player when it was ok to score at 2 runs an over in test matches and grind your way to a massive score.

Oh yes...I nearly forgot that that is the objective in Test cricket. I've got so used to players flailing wildly away from the first ball and Tests being over well before the fifth day.
Too many viewers these days want crash bang wallop Test cricket just like the one-dayers. The Aussies in the late 80's and 90's transformed Test cricket by scoring at 4 an over. They were able to do this because they had a string of high class batsman.
We haven't. Hence the need to grind it out. Sadly, some England players are incapable of either.

 

[big nuts]

There's truth in Keaton's comments, many of the best, boldest selection decisions were Peter Moores' (Swann, Anderson, Prior, Sidebottom, Bresnan, Onions etc). Incidentally Moores first picked Trott too - in 2008 vs the West Indies.

That said, I think Flower's been an excellent coach and leader - prior to the last 6 months, he presided over a period when England batters have flourished. If he's guilty of anything it's becoming too predictable and complacent, which Australia exploited to the full. He has also surrounded himself with a lot of like-minded people (Cook, Gooch etc). Time will tell whether he has the ability to rebuild.

Pietersen's a destructive batter, but you would be mad to build a team around him - we tried that before. Remind me again who engineered Moores' departure and then tried to undermine his captain to the opposition?

Trott's test debut was in the 5th test at the oval against Australia in 2009.

 

[MJsGhost]

But Prior was out of form all of last year for Sussex and England. Why didn't they pick a proper reserve keeper rather than a batsmen (who'd they lost faith in) who can keep a bit.

Good point, but it's seems to have been policy for a while (before the Flower era) to make a 'keeper out of a batsman, rather than a batsman out of a 'keeper.

I personally would have preferred a decent wicket keeper in the squad instead of one of the seamers, but if the tour had turned out differently (Prior found form or others did meaning he could be carried), that could have been seen as a waste of a spot in the squad.

 

[Hiney]

I don't see any criticism of Goochs' batting career at all in what Hiney said, just pointed out that he played in a different era. That's how I read it, anyway.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Maybe, it read a bit like a criticism though. He played some of his best cricket in his late 30's well into the '90's. The demands then weren't so different to now. I'll always remember his 333. He scored that at a SR of 68.65. In Cook's 25 centuries, he's only bettered that SR once. So it was hardly like Gooch pondered at 2 runs an over.

Gooch in his pomp was one of the most belligerent, quick scoring players around. I've seen him take attacks apart. His incredible 154 at Headingly was in contrast to his 123 v W Indies at Lords, where he blazed some high class quicks all round the place. If he was playing in this era, with all the extra Tests, he would be well over 10,000 Test runs.
To me, there is no comparison between him and Cook. Gooch was a much better player than Cook will ever be.

 

[MJsGhost]

Gooch in his pomp was one of the most belligerent, quick scoring players around. I've seen him take attacks apart. His incredible 154 at Headingly was in contrast to his 123 v W Indies at Lords, where he blazed some high class quicks all round the place. If he was playing in this era, with all the extra Tests, he would be well over 10,000 Test runs.
To me, there is no comparison between him and Cook. Gooch was a much better player than Cook will ever be.

A bold statement to make seeing as Cook has 10+ years to keep improving (though I fully agree that he will have to be some player to do it)

Remember this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/4208162.stm

 

[Mo Gosfield]

I hate all this nonsense that KP gets accused of not being a team player. He gives his wicket away at silly times but I don't think he's being selfish, he just gets on a roll and doesn't know when to stop. His ego makes him think he's never going to get out and that is both his strength and his weakness, as is often the case in cricket.

...and thats where we agree to disagree. He plays his own game irrespective of the circumstances and that in itself is selfish. In cricket, every innings is different and batsman have to use their own experience and initiative to adjust. Plus, you should receive some instruction from captain or management.
His powers are now waning ( although a lot of people refuse to acknowledge this ) and he will struggle to recapture former glories, as his hand-eye co-ordination continues to diminish. The unorthodox technique has always been covered up by brilliant hitting across the line but this will desert him as he gets older.
KP has been tolerated thus far as he was able to produce the occasional ' daddy ' hundred. Patience will now run out as he contributes little more than cameo 30's and 40's.

 

[vegster]

Gooch was a player when it was ok to score at 2 runs an over in test matches and grind your way to a massive score. He didn't play at a time where there are 15 test matches and about a million ODIs in a year, giving the players no rest at all.

It's as much about managing the relentless slogging around the world without any down-time, as it is being out in the middle.

It's ridiculous that recently retired players like Michael Vaughan are in the commentary box, rather than in the dressing room, imparting their knowledge.

Gooch was playing at a time before central contracts and like the others of the England team, was expected to play primarily in domestic cricket. Usually about that time there was the County Championship, and the one day competitions of The Benson & Hedges Cup (60 overs ) the Gillette Cup ( 55 overs) and the John Player Sunday league ( 40 overs). The Gillette and B & H cups were usually a straight knockout competition while the JPL was a league format. So plenty of cricket there and if you had the good fortune to be picked for England you would normally be back in your county team 2-3 days after playing a Test.

So thats 16 3 day County Games, !6 JPL games plus as many Gillette and B & H games as your county could play depending on results. Test Cricketers would be expected to turn out for these especially in the later stages if they had a sniff of a trophy. Oh and Test Matches and the One Day International series which may have been between 3 and 7 one day games.

Central Contracts means players are limited to playing for England and their counties only at the managements discretion.There are three England team squads Test, One day and 20/20 and it's unlikely a player will appear across all 3 formats of the game.

Please don't say they are tired.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Gooch was playing at a time before central contracts and like the others of the England team, was expected to play primarily in domestic cricket. Usually about that time there was the County Championship, and the one day competitions of The Benson & Hedges Cup (60 overs ) the Gillette Cup ( 55 overs) and the John Player Sunday league ( 40 overs). The Gillette and B & H cups were usually a straight knockout competition while the JPL was a league format. So plenty of cricket there and if you had the good fortune to be picked for England you would normally be back in your county team 2-3 days after playing a Test.

So thats 16 3 day County Games, !6 JPL games plus as many Gillette and B & H games as your county could play depending on results. Test Cricketers would be expected to turn out for these especially in the later stages if they had a sniff of a trophy. Oh and Test Matches and the One Day International series which may have been between 3 and 7 one day games.

Central Contracts means players are limited to playing for England and their counties only at the managements discretion.There are three England team squads Test, One day and 20/20 and it's unlikely a player will appear across all 3 formats of the game.

Please don't say they are tired.

Indeed, on examination, Hiney's assertion that Gooch somehow had it easy with less matches etc. just doesn't stand up.

Gooch played 581 first class cricket matches, inc.118 tests.
Strauss 241 first class, inc.100 tests.
Vaughan 268, 82 tests.
Hussain 334, 96 tests.
Atherton 336, 115 tests.

Gooch had it real easy.....

 

[Billy the Fish]

...and thats where we agree to disagree. He plays his own game irrespective of the circumstances and that in itself is selfish. In cricket, every innings is different and batsman have to use their own experience and initiative to adjust. Plus, you should receive some instruction from captain or management.
His powers are now waning ( although a lot of people refuse to acknowledge this ) and he will struggle to recapture former glories, as his hand-eye co-ordination continues to diminish. The unorthodox technique has always been covered up by brilliant hitting across the line but this will desert him as he gets older.
KP has been tolerated thus far as he was able to produce the occasional ' daddy ' hundred. Patience will now run out as he contributes little more than cameo 30's and 40's.

I think we all agree on the sentiment, mabye just disagree on the reason he bats like he does. The stupid thing is that some of his 100s have been pretty brilliant, I think it was his double against India at Lords where he hardly scored a boundary for the first 60 or so and just knocked it around for 1s and 2s, then he gradually went up through the gears. Had he done that more often I suspect we wouldn't be having this debate.

 

[The Wizard]

Not worth a new thread but at least they've done something good of note whilst they are in Aus.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/25650615

 

[Pavilionaire]

In a straight "him or me" ultimatum Pietersen will win and Flower will be gone every time. Right now Pietersen finished top runscorer while Flower was in charge of a side that lost 5-0.

All of the younger pundits out there - Vaughan, Tufnell, Harmison etc - are saying Pietersen should be in the England side for the summer tests. It would seem crazy to axe your top runscorer and most talented batsman. And yet that is exactly what I think they should do.

Pietersen blotted his copybook with Peter Moores and the captaincy debacle, helping to lose Moores that job. He now looks as though he's helping to lose Flower his job. And yet in August 2012 we had the situation where he was all matey with his South Africa buddies criticising some of the England players. You wonder whether some of the senior players are tired of playing for England partly because of Pietersen and his ego.

You can put up with Pietersen if he's winning you matches or scoring centuries but he's not doing that either. He wants to make big bucks and play in the IPL so go let him. If you pander to his needs other players in the team will crave similar treatment and it will be the thin end of the wedge.

I say swallow the bitter pill and drop him. It would be great if Trott could come back and take his place - A top 7 of Cook, Robson, Trott, Bell, Root, Stokes and Prior looks great on paper, so let's get everyone refreshed, bring in a couple of new coaches and rebuild.

 

[vegster]

In a straight "him or me" ultimatum Pietersen will win and Flower will be gone every time. Right now Pietersen finished top runscorer while Flower was in charge of a side that lost 5-0.

All of the younger pundits out there - Vaughan, Tufnell, Harmison etc - are saying Pietersen should be in the England side for the summer tests. It would seem crazy to axe your top runscorer and most talented batsman. And yet that is exactly what I think they should do.

Pietersen blotted his copybook with Peter Moores and the captaincy debacle, helping to lose Moores that job. He now looks as though he's helping to lose Flower his job. And yet in August 2012 we had the situation where he was all matey with his South Africa buddies criticising some of the England players. You wonder whether some of the senior players are tired of playing for England partly because of Pietersen and his ego.

You can put up with Pietersen if he's winning you matches or scoring centuries but he's not doing that either. He wants to make big bucks and play in the IPL so go let him. If you pander to his needs other players in the team will crave similar treatment and it will be the thin end of the wedge.

I say swallow the bitter pill and drop him. It would be great if Trott could come back and take his place - A top 7 of Cook, Robson, Trott, Bell, Root, Stokes and Prior looks great on paper, so let's get everyone refreshed, bring in a couple of new coaches and rebuild.

It was widely touted in the summer that Clarke did not get on with Watson and felt he was not supportive of him and not a team player. Well, that seems to have worked itself out.

 

[MJsGhost]

It was widely touted in the summer that Clarke did not get on with Watson and felt he was not supportive of him and not a team player. Well, that seems to have worked itself out.

What works for the Aussies might not work quite the same for England though.

Not easily rectified, but what if part of the issue is a wider, cultural difference between KP and the rest of the squad? If you dropped him into the Aussie team, would the (stereotype warning!), tougher, more brash squad members cope better with the (allegedly) selfish, cocky KP? It is a massively sweeping generalisation (and I also accept that not all of the team are British born), but if rest of the England squad are a bit more sensitive than the Aussies (or SA), it would exacerbate the issue.

If there were a few more 'characters' in the squad, KP's ego would be drowned out rather than so obviously different.

There is a strong argument to suggest the rest of them should man up, but it's easier to get rid of one player upsetting the apple cart than getting the other 10 to grow some!

 

[Stumpy Tim]

I'd agree with every bit of that apart from #2.

I have it from a reliable sauce (family member) that Prior is looking at a last big pay day in the IPL, which would mean retiring from the England set-up. It's certainly not a done deal apparently - it will all depend upon a number of variables - but it is at least an option being considered.

With that being the case, using a couple of dead rubbers to see if Bairstow is ready to step up isn't a bad idea. It's worth remembering how hard Prior had to work to get his keeping up to scratch, so repeating that process with Bairstow is entirely feasible.

If they're looking for an alternative to Prior then they should have taken Jos Butler. Bairstow isn't a keeper

 

[spring hall convert]

There's truth in Keaton's comments, many of the best, boldest selection decisions were Peter Moores' (Swann, Anderson, Prior, Sidebottom, Bresnan, Onions etc). Incidentally Moores first picked Trott too - in 2008 vs the West Indies.

That said, I think Flower's been an excellent coach and leader - prior to the last 6 months, he presided over a period when England batters have flourished. If he's guilty of anything it's becoming too predictable and complacent, which Australia exploited to the full. He has also surrounded himself with a lot of like-minded people (Cook, Gooch etc). Time will tell whether he has the ability to rebuild.

Pietersen's a destructive batter, but you would be mad to build a team around him - we tried that before. Remind me again who engineered Moores' departure and then tried to undermine his captain to the opposition?

Moores departure didn't need a great deal of engineering and in hindsight it was probably for the best. Again Strauss form was such that he didn't need a great deal of undermining. Also we are far from clear about what this undermining entailed, it never actually came out did it?

I have a feeling that KP is a bit of a less psycotic Roy Keane in dressing room. He's super serious & focused and can't stand people that he feels have outlived their usefulness or are mucking about. This is why I trust him entirely to retire at the right time, he'll know when he can't hack it any more.

As for Tufnell's comments Pietersen isn't a great player, I agree but he is a player who plays great innings and on a fairly regular basis. He's also up their with our highest EVER test match run scorers at an average you would most definately take. The Strike Rate & "bums on seats" factor is just a bonus

 

[spring hall convert]

If they're looking for an alternative to Prior then they should have taken Jos Butler. Bairstow isn't a keeper

He doesn't look much of a batsmen either. Perhaps we should start a "what does he do thread." It perked SD up for a while.

 

[sten_super]

Gooch was receiving a load of plaudits until relatively recently for all of the big scores we were posting (including 3 years ago in Australia). I wonder what's happened in the interim to cause his influence to wane?

It really does sound as if a 'new brush' is needed. I think that should start with the head coach, and include any support staff that the new man doesn't want. It's then up to the new head coach in conjunction with the captain (who I think should remain Cook, primarily because there's no-one else) to decide who they want out of the dressing room, and let the selectors go from there.