[News] Air India flight AI171 Ahmedabad -> London Gatwick crashed

[Bozza]

That aircraft looks like it has stalled. (Not enough forward airspeed).

Looking at the flight radar playback too, the runway they took off of has its last taxiway entry point about halfway down the runway, then (similar to Luton) aircraft should turn left, backtrack the runway, and turn around in a turning circle, before taking off. If flight radar trace is accurate? It looks like this aircraft turned right straight onto runway from the taxiway entry, about half way down runway and didn't backtrack. It's hard to imagine a fully loaded 787 would have enough performance with half the runway and would make sense that they were struggling for airspeed and lift.

It may well be something else, or flightradar trace not accurate. Wheels down is also not normal for a departing aircraft.

This is runway, and this aircraft took off in direction of top to bottom of photo
View attachment 204076

From a quick read on twitter, taking off from that runway entry point is entirely normal.

Reading pilots discussing it - https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/666472-plane-crash-near-ahmedabad-2.html - they seem to be suggesting it could be human error mixing up flaps (up, not down) and the gear (down, not up).

 

[Gazwag]

53 British Nationals

 

[Flounce]

I fly fairly regularly for work (and try to offset the carbon in other ways) and my attitude is que sara sara. I’m completely out of control of the situation so I have to place trust in the crew and machinery

The logical attitude

 

[vegster]

Terrible news, so sad. So many lives cut short.

 

[herecomesaregular]

From a quick read on twitter, taking off from that runway entry point is entirely normal.

Reading pilots discussing it - https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/666472-plane-crash-near-ahmedabad-2.html - they seem to be suggesting it could be human error mixing up flaps (up, not down) and the gear (down, not up).

Wouldn't that be the most basic of errors? Seems suspicious to me.

RiP to those on the plane and on the ground.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

That aircraft looks like it has stalled. (Not enough forward airspeed).

Looking at the flight radar playback too, the runway they took off of has its last taxiway entry point about halfway down the runway, then (similar to Luton) aircraft should turn left, backtrack the runway, and turn around in a turning circle, before taking off. If flight radar trace is accurate? It looks like this aircraft turned right straight onto runway from the taxiway entry, about half way down runway and didn't backtrack. It's hard to imagine a fully loaded 787 would have enough performance with half the runway and would make sense that they were struggling for airspeed and lift.

It may well be something else, or flightradar trace not accurate. Wheels down is also not normal for a departing aircraft.

This is runway, and this aircraft took off in direction of top to bottom of photo
View attachment 204076

Before we all speculate I'll just correct you. An aircraft stall is due to angle of attack being exceeded not lack of speed that is another matter. The length of the runway here would require a B787 to use the full runway no way would a clear to takeoff be given by the tower. As far as the undercarrige being down it happened straight after takeoff.

 

[Goldstone1976]

From a quick read on twitter, taking off from that runway entry point is entirely normal.

Reading pilots discussing it - https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/666472-plane-crash-near-ahmedabad-2.html - they seem to be suggesting it could be human error mixing up flaps (up, not down) and the gear (down, not up).

Re cause: maybe. BBC reporting the pilots issued a Mayday call. Doesn’t preclude your sources’ conjecture, of course, but you’d hope that pilots would know enough to check the obvious causes before issuing a Mayday.

Dreadful scenes.

 

[peterward]

From a quick read on twitter, taking off from that runway entry point is entirely normal.

Reading pilots discussing it - https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/666472-plane-crash-near-ahmedabad-2.html - they seem to be suggesting it could be human error mixing up flaps (up, not down) and the gear (down, not up).

That's a strong possibility? It's hard to tell from brief video clip, if wing is clean (flap up). Take off flaps only move a little on rear of wing in take off configuration, front of wing (leading edge) is impossible to see in video

But gear is down. And if they did accidently Select flaps up (instead of gear) as suggested, before accelerating to the flaps up speed, they'd instantly put themselves in a stall. (Not enough airspeed for flaps up). And not enough lift.

Worse still is Indian cities have such high densities. Dread to think what the final death toll will be

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

From a quick read on twitter, taking off from that runway entry point is entirely normal.

Reading pilots discussing it - https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/666472-plane-crash-near-ahmedabad-2.html - they seem to be suggesting it could be human error mixing up flaps (up, not down) and the gear (down, not up).

The undercarrige lever is on the facia and looks like a small undercarrage, designed NOT to be missed. The flaps lever are in the centre consul. It would be almost unbelievable to think a pilot would make an error like that.

 

[Doug-ees-evil]

Absolutely horrendous. Thoughts with all those poor souls in the aircraft and on the ground. RIP.
And to all those who have to work through the wreckage. Hard to imagine the scenes they are confronting.

 

[Bozza]

The undercarrige lever is on the facia and looks like a small undercarrage, designed NOT to be missed. The flaps lever are in the centre consul. It would be almost unbelievable to think a pilot would make an error like that.

Yeah - I know very little, which is why I tend to go to PPRUNE for flight things, as it's people who generally have first-hand knowledge of this stuff, so is hopefully better-informed.

 

[papachris]

Pictures from the crash site are awful. I was in Ahmedabad at the end of my India tour in 2020 and departed from that airport.
As you'd expect in India the streets were teaming with people. It's a very densely populated area. People caught in the explosion on the ground could be quite a significant amount.

 

[Easy 10]

Radio saying there were 53 Britons onboard.

 

[Doug-ees-evil]

From BBC.
The captain had 8,200 hours of flying experience. The co-pilot had 1,100 hours of flying experience.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

That's a strong possibility? It's hard to tell from brief video clip, if wing is clean (flap up). Take off flaps only move a little on rear of wing in take off configuration, front of wing (leading edge) is impossible to see in video

But gear is down. And if they did accidently Select flaps up (instead of gear) as suggested, before accelerating to the flaps up speed, they'd instantly put themselves in a stall. (Not enough airspeed for flaps up). And not enough lift.

Worse still is Indian cities have such high densities. Dread to think what the final death toll will be

It does look a clean wing from what I can see but can't see the slats.

 

[peterward]

Before we all speculate I'll just correct you. An aircraft stall is due to angle of attack being exceeded not lack of speed that is another matter. The length of the runway here would require a B787 to use the full runway no way would a clear to takeoff be given by the tower. As far as the undercarrige being down it happened straight after takeoff.

Mate, Correcting me? 21 years my friend!

Yes that is technically correct, but if you're at 10 degrees angle of attack, 20 or 30 why do you stall? Because you don't have the airspeed for that angle of attack. Critical angle of attack depends on configuration and airspeed. If you don't have the airspeed for the angle of attack you're not flying you're falling, you have 2 choices, push nose forward or increase airspeed (add thrust).

I don't know the runway length, but take off performance from any intersection is a function of engine performance, weight, wind and temperature. Intersection take offs are normal. This one looks about half way down which would seem unusual that a fully laden (heavy) 787 can depart about half way down (unless runway is massively long?) Tower wouldn't stop you from taking off, it's the Captains responsibility to ensure they have the performance to take off from an intersection (if that's what they do)

Gear up is first action on confirming positive rate of climb. Its not normal its down when they crash in video.

 

[lawros left foot]

Mrs LLF has just showed me a post on Facebook.

One particular comment is vile.
James Martin, I’d rather have anyone on that plane in my country than you.

Anyway, my deepest condolences to anyone affected.

 

[Randy McNob]

i've flown China Eastern many times, never a problem with the flight itself, but not a great airline imo

 

[Official Old Man]

Just gone on flightradar and flights going over the airport are getting 17,000 viewers (it came up when I opened the app). Are they expecting another plane to be shot down or something?
Flight SVA986 heading that way had 0 viewers but now has 4128 and rising as it gets closer.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Mate, Correcting me? 21 years my friend!

Yes that is technically correct, but if you're at 10 degrees angle of attack, 20 or 30 why do you stall? Because you don't have the airspeed for that angle of attack. Critical angle of attack depends on configuration and airspeed. If you don't have the airspeed for the angle of attack you're not flying you're falling, you have 2 choices, push nose forward or increase airspeed (add thrust).

I don't know the runway length, but take off performance from any intersection is a function of engine performance, weight, wind and temperature. Intersection take offs are normal. This one looks about half way down which would seem unusual that a fully laden (heavy) 787 can depart about half way down (unless runway is massively long?) Tower wouldn't stop you from taking off, it's the Captains responsibility to ensure they have the performance to take off from an intersection (if that's what they do)

Gear up is first action on confirming positive rate of climb. Its not normal its down when they crash in video.

I was just using my Aeronautics Degree and 20 years for BCal/BA. However the B777 was a new aircraft when I left.

The video clip of it crashing with sound didn't hear the engines screaming.

I shall await what comes out as facts, for now my thoughts are with those people involved.