147 Dead in Kenya Attack

[OzMike]

Nothing will ever stop man killing man, if it wasn't religion it would be something else.
Though all religions will be meaningless come the next asteroid, only a matter of time as history has proven.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Being conspicuously quiet. Christians are soft targets for the Muslim 'Extremists' in many middle east and third world countries. In 20 years there won't be any overt Christians outside the First World. Most European countries will be Muslim and atheist dominated. We'll sleepwalk into this situation.

So true.

 

[BadFish]

So true.

True? Do you have any evidence, statistics or projections to back this up?

My assertion is that it is not true. My information says that the muslim population in the UK is unlikely to reach over 10%

FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent, let alone 50 per cent.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will-britain-have-a-muslim-majority-by-2050/13690

this is of course ignoring the red herring thrown in my Jimbob5 about atheists. But lets be honest if the population of the UK is mostly Muslim and Atheist this means that Atheists will make up 40% of the population to the Muslims 10% which isn't really a bad state of affairs. A step in the right direction in my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

True? Do you have any evidence, statistics or projections to back this us.

My assertion is that it is not true. My information says that the muslim population in the UK is unlikely to reach over 10%



http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will-britain-have-a-muslim-majority-by-2050/13690

this is of course ignoring the red herring thrown in my Jimbob5 about atheists. But lets be honest if the population of the UK is mostly Muslim and Atheist this means that Atheists will make up 40% of the population to the Muslims 10% which isn't really a bad state of affairs. A step in the right direction in my opinion.

You feel comfortable with it, lots of people don't, and people need to accept that fact that not everyone is going to embrace it. It's really as simple as that. People shouldn't be judged called names for not accepting certain aspects of it, when in some areas it is clearly having problems adapting within different cultures.

 

[BadFish]

You feel comfortable with it, lots of people don't, and people need to accept that fact that not everyone is going to embrace it. It's really as simple as that. People shouldn't be judged called names for not accepting certain aspects of it, when in some areas it is clearly having problems adapting within different cultures.

People have different opinions about things and discussion are had. The problem with these discussions is that often information is passed off as fact ("so true") when in fact it isn't. How can anyone make decisions with how they feel about a situation when that situation is presented falsly?

So I ask you again what evidence do you have that suggests that "Most European countries will be Muslim and atheist dominated" is "so true"?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

People have different opinions about things and discussion are had. The problem with these discussions is that often information is passed off as fact ("so true") when in fact it isn't. How can anyone make decisions with how they feel about a situation when that situation is presented falsly?

So I ask you again what evidence do you have that suggests that "Most European countries will be Muslim and atheist dominated" is "so true"?

I can't answer your question because I simply don't know, however looking at the migratory patterns of people in to the EU, the numbers, they are coming from mainly Muslim countries, whether that be legally or illegally because of war, but you have to ask the questions, what type of people are coming, what type of mindset are they bringing. People should and are rightly concerned.

 

[BadFish]

I can't answer your question because I simply don't know, however looking at the migratory patterns of people in to the EU, the numbers, they are coming from mainly Muslim countries, whether that be legally or illegally because of war, but you have to ask the questions, what type of people are coming, what type of mindset are they bringing. People should and are rightly concerned.

The trouble is if you are passing off information as fact when in fact you don't know you are adding to the misinformation and propaganda that is clouding what is a difficult and dangerous situation.

I just don't get where you get these figures from. Your post suggests that most people migrating to the EU are Muslims. From a quick google this doesn't appear to be true.

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/07/Faithonthemove-chart-63.png

This chart suggests that 39% of migrants into the EU are Muslim.

Further on the site is puts the difference between the number of Christian Migrants (42%) as around 1 million.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/03/08/religious-migration-destination-spotlights/

Aside from your flawed facts.Your post is suggesting that people should be concerned, you are inferring that those Muslims somehow cause a threat to the european way of life. The trouble with this kind of thinking is that it blurs the lines between extremist islam and the vast majority of normal peace loving Muslims.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

The trouble is if you are passing off information as fact when in fact you don't know you are adding to the misinformation and propaganda that is clouding what is a difficult and dangerous situation.

I just don't get where you get these figures from. Your post suggests that most people migrating to the EU are Muslims. From a quick google this doesn't appear to be true.

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/07/Faithonthemove-chart-63.png

This chart suggests that 39% of migrants into the UK are Muslim.

Further on the site is puts the difference between the number of Christian Migrants (42%) as around 1 million.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/03/08/religious-migration-destination-spotlights/

Aside from you flawed facts.Your post is suggesting that people should be concerned you are inferring that those Muslims somehow cause a threat to the european way of life. The trouble with this kind of thinking is that it blurs the lines between extremist islam and the vast majority of normal peace loving Muslims.

You forgot the people who might not be extreme but are pushing and forcing more conservative forms of Islam on the UK, one case in point could be the issues with the schools that we had, using sharia law. A moderate to me is somebody that is isn't following their life 24/7 to their religion.

 

[jimbob5]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-32169080

Anyone want to say that this is just about mad/bad people, and not about religion?

Yes it's about people being slaughtered for being Christians by Muslims.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Yes it's about people being slaughtered for being Christians by Muslims.

Would being an Atheist have stopped someone from being slaughtered in this attack?

 

[jimbob5]

Would being an Atheist have stopped someone from being slaughtered in this attack?

I don't think one person could have stopped it, no. Not sure what you're getting at. If any non muslim happened to have been there he'd have got slaughtered.

 

[BadFish]

You forgot the people who might not be extreme but are pushing and forcing more conservative forms of Islam on the UK, one case in point could be the issues with the schools that we had, using sharia law. A moderate to me is somebody that is isn't following their life 24/7 to their religion.

The problem is that on these threads people are using a "Case in point" as proof that their is some kind of Islamic conspiracy to take over the country. When these cases in point are taken in isolation of everything else (and often tenuously linked to Islam) they appear to be frightening but actually they still represent an incredibly small minority of Muslims. This kind of thinking leads to misleading predictions about the number of Muslims that are in and will be in a country.

People think that the Uk is made up of 21% Muslims, in actual fact it is 5% http://www.pewforum.org/2012/03/08/religious-migration-destination-spotlights/. What this tells me is that misinformation just like the stuff that gets plastered over NSC is causing fear among people that is disproportionate to the problems that we are actually facing. Look at this thread as a fine example, people on here are calling out other posters because now they have proof that there are islamic nutters out there. No-one has ever denied this but people have taken this hideous incident in Africa as vindication for all their theories.

The net effect of this is that more peaceful and normal Muslims as marginalised and pushed towards those extremists that are waiting to brainwash them. I have listened to interviews with a few people who have got involved in extremism and terrorism and i've noticed that the theme that runs through their stories is that they have been treated poorly by others and pushed to the margins of society.

 

[KZNSeagull]

I don't think one person could have stopped it no. Not sure what you're getting at. If any non muslim happened to have been there he's have got slaughtered.

You have answered my question with your last sentence.

 

[jimbob5]

The problem is that on these threads people are using a "Case in point" as proof that their is some kind of Islamic conspiracy to take over the country. When these cases in point are taken in isolation of everything else (and often tenuously linked to Islam) they appear to be frightening but actually they still represent an incredibly small minority of Muslims. This kind of thinking leads to misleading predictions about the number of Muslims that are in and will be in a country.

People think that the Uk is made up of 21% Muslims, in actual fact it is 5% http://www.pewforum.org/2012/03/08/religious-migration-destination-spotlights/. What this tells me is that misinformation just like the stuff that gets plastered over NSC is causing fear among people that is disproportionate to the problems that we are actually facing. Look at this thread as a fine example, people on here are calling out other posters because now they have proof that there are islamic nutters out there. No-one has ever denied this but people have taken this hideous incident in Africa as vindication for all their theories.

The net effect of this is that more peaceful and normal Muslims as marginalised and pushed towards those extremists that are waiting to brainwash them. I have listened to interviews with a few people who have got involved in extremism and terrorism and i've noticed that the theme that runs through their stories is that they have been treated poorly by others and pushed to the margins of society.

I know some die hard Christians and I don't agree with a lot/most of what they say but as soon one hints they might be slightly Christian they usually get treated with mild contempt and get a lecture on how religion causes all world problems. They don't feel the need to start a Crusade, these days, anyway.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

The problem is that on these threads people are using a "Case in point" as proof that their is some kind of Islamic conspiracy to take over the country. When these cases in point are taken in isolation of everything else (and often tenuously linked to Islam) they appear to be frightening but actually they still represent an incredibly small minority of Muslims. This kind of thinking leads to misleading predictions about the number of Muslims that are in and will be in a country.

People think that the Uk is made up of 21% Muslims, in actual fact it is 5% http://www.pewforum.org/2012/03/08/religious-migration-destination-spotlights/. What this tells me is that misinformation just like the stuff that gets plastered over NSC is causing fear among people that is disproportionate to the problems that we are actually facing. Look at this thread as a fine example, people on here are calling out other posters because now they have proof that there are islamic nutters out there. No-one has ever denied this but people have taken this hideous incident in Africa as vindication for all their theories.

The net effect of this is that more peaceful and normal Muslims as marginalised and pushed towards those extremists that are waiting to brainwash them. I have listened to interviews with a few people who have got involved in extremism and terrorism and i've noticed that the theme that runs through their stories is that they have been treated poorly by others and pushed to the margins of society.

Fair points but I just wish people would respect this country a bit more, that's all people ask for.

 

[jimbob5]

You have answered my question with your last sentence.

Sorry you are being a tad coy. The people who were slaughtered were Christians. One person is not going to stop it, is he? I think you think I'm promoting Christianity. I'm just saying that it's not particularly nice for anyone to be slaughtered by someone who says he's acting in the name of Islam.

 

[BadFish]

I know some die hard Christians and I don't agree with a lot/most of what they say but as soon one hints they might be slightly Christian they usually get treated with mild contempt and get a lecture on how religion causes all world problems. They don't feel the need to start a Crusade, these days, anyway.

I have some Muslim friends who are just the same.

 

[jimbob5]

I have some Muslim friends who are just the same.

I should hope so! You or someone above suggested people were being pushed towards extremism.

 

[BadFish]

I should hope so! You or someone above suggested people were being pushed towards extremism.

Happily not my friends. Although some charming chaps did yell at them the other night about beheadings and terrorism.

 

[KZNSeagull]

Sorry you are being a tad coy. The people who were slaughtered were Christians. One person is not going to stop it, is he? I think you think I'm promoting Christianity. I'm just saying that it's not particularly nice for anyone to be slaughtered by someone who says he's acting in the name of Islam.

Not coy. Reading your posts makes it sound that being Christian was the main reason they were killed, when I do not believe it was.

The reason for this attack, in my view, was mainly because it was a soft target in a country at war with al-shabab, the fact that they did not then kill muslims (or claim to have not even though we do not know exactly who was killed yet) was secondary. The thinking was not "let's go and kill some christians" but "let's go and attack a target in a country fighting us, but whilst we are there we had better not kill Muslims as that will not help our cause".

You posted earlier in the thread that countries will turn atheist, presumably as some sort of reason not to be attacked, but we know that this will not help in the slightest.

Your interpretation of my statement meaning that one person could have stopped it is not something that I said at all. My point was more that they killed non-Muslims, not necessarily Christians.