[Albion] 10-game ban and 50-loyalty point deduction

[jackalbion]

Yeah, I’m inclined to agree. As an Albion supporting family we discuss the club on family chats pretty much all week. It just isn’t possible that any of us would apply for tickets for a game without mentioning it. It’s a big part of our lives.

And with all respect maybe some people are different, I go to home games with my mum, when I’m at home I speak pretty much non stop football with her. When I go to the away games I speak about the football, I have a huge group of friends, so I just say I went with “the usual lot”, I imagine this is a similar situation with the OP, it just is t really relevant information. My mum doesn’t care which ones of the thirty people I chatted to or shared a pint at the game or way to the game were.

 

[jackalbion]

Would you have just taken it, not circulated the news and disappointment?

He's not slagged the club off as he knew the rules, no doubt is very disappointed at the clubs punishment and rigid approach but has been grown up about that. Presume he appreciates that you have to be seen to administer the punishment or no one will heed the rules.

Amazes me that some (not referring to you) then bring his integrity into question. Starts feeling like a cult rather than a club at times (sorry Chailey)

Chailey has been pretty neutral this time actually

 

[Uh_huh_him]

100% this, but the club seem to be not interested in it at all.

I suspect the club will be all over it once Digital away tickets are a thing.
Until then the idea of a ticket exchange is a logistical nightmare.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Because the getting rid of trouble makers thing is a bit of a facade, it seems to me about proving a point to some people, that they can’t do what they want with away tickets. We have a small amount of trouble makers at Brighton compared to most of the other 92.

This is almost the opposite view to Barber’s which you can hear on the recent Albion Roar podcast when he is challenged about these rules. He has stated that the trouble makers have caused big issues but also that their wings have been clipped because of these rules and that trouble has now declined. He was massively concerned that our away support was getting a bad reputation. You seem oblivious to that and the fact that many decent fans can’t ‘get on the away ladder’ because so many other fans were giving their tickets away to retain the highest points totals.

What would you do about the hundreds of complaints Mr Barder has received about these two issues? Turn a blind eye?

 

[dazzer6666]

Because the getting rid of trouble makers thing is a bit of a facade, it seems to me about proving a point to some people, that they can’t do what they want with away tickets. We have a small amount of trouble makers at Brighton compared to most of the other 92, just some people who support us think that because a 16 year old snuck in a flare, or called the ref the c-word its the second coming of the ICF. It’s about the club exerting their control over the fans, that they control the tickets, there are good and bad things of this policy.

Edit: this was meant to be replying to Joey Joey Shabadoo but seems to have defaulted to a different post, not sure if this is a system error @Bozza as this has happened a couple of times.

There is a valid point about people unfairly gathering LPs as well though which this has more or less stopped……..but there has to be some way of transferring away tickets already purchased. They are bought well in advance and plans change.

 

[wellquickwoody]

I do laugh at this attitude about 'it's modern football bollocks'. Seems some are stuck in the 70s. For your information, the whole world has moved on from the 1970s, pretty much every aspect of you life has advanced. Everything isn't perfect but in my view it's a damn sight better than it was.

I find the naivety of young(er) people quite astonishing. Year by year, decade by decade, personal freedom is being eroded. Always with well meaning intentions, very often with side effects that make life less colourful. I think the 20th and 21st centuries will prove to have been the most fun time to be alive as part of the human race, more specifically the bit between 1950 and 2050. Before that life was tough, after it will be come androdgeonously dull.

 

[CheeseRolls]

Because the getting rid of trouble makers thing is a bit of a facade, it seems to me about proving a point to some people, that they can’t do what they want with away tickets. We have a small amount of trouble makers at Brighton compared to most of the other 92, just some people who support us think that because a 16 year old snuck in a flare, or called the ref the c-word its the second coming of the ICF. It’s about the club exerting their control over the fans, that they control the tickets, there are good and bad things of this policy.

Edit: this was meant to be replying to Joey Joey Shabadoo but seems to have defaulted to a different post, not sure if this is a system error @Bozza as this has happened a couple of times.

Neither of these things are particularly bad or noteworthy. At Spurs away in the cup last year, there was a group of 5 twenty somethings. They arrived late and pushed their way into their seats in front of us and close to the Spurs supporters. Then barely paid any attention to the game for the duration. Left before half time, returned 10 minutes into the second half. Much more interested in sharing their own jokes and stash of whatever they were inhaling and any other focus was on winding up the nearby Spurs fans. One of them spent the entire second half throwing Haribo at a Spurs fan. You are right it isn't the ICF, but it also isn't supporting Brighton and there must be more deserving cases for tickets.

 

[dazzer6666]

Neither of these things are particularly bad or noteworthy. At Spurs away in the cup last year, there was a group of 5 twenty somethings. They arrived late and pushed their way into their seats in front of us and close to the Spurs supporters. Then barely paid any attention to the game for the duration. Left before half time, returned 10 minutes into the second half. Much more interested in sharing their own jokes and stash of whatever they were inhaling and any other focus was on winding up the nearby Spurs fans. One of them spent the entire second half throwing Haribo at a Spurs fan. You are right it isn't the ICF, but it also isn't supporting Brighton and there must be more deserving cases for tickets.

London games do seem to have the highest proportion of this type of ‘fan’……..

 

[jackalbion]

This is almost the opposite view to Barber’s which you can hear on the recent Albion Roar podcast when he is challenged about these rules. He has stated that the trouble makers have caused big issues but also that their wings have been clipped because of these rules and that trouble has now declined. He was massively concerned that our away support was getting a bad reputation. You seem oblivious to that and the fact that many decent fans can’t ‘get on the away ladder’ because so many other fans were giving their tickets away to retain the highest points totals.

What would you do about the hundreds of complaints Mr Barder has received about these two issues? Turn a blind eye?

I just don't think our support has that bad a reputation, I understand the issue with the loyalty points, people can't keep on hoarding them, but as I've stated there has to be a better way to move on tickets when people can't attend. I think he's right to combat this issue, and the issue with people not bothering with away games but passing on tickets to gain point would be solved with an away ticket exchange but the club need to be proactive to sort that. I don't think he should turn a blind eye, but I think he's used a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There seems to be an idea (like some baseless claims about the OP being dishonest) that people are trying to game the system maliciously, there should have been a warning for those caught before starting to hand out ten game bans, and there doesn't actually appear to be any form of appeal which is disappointing.

I think barber is pretty fair, but there seems to be a little bit of an obsession from some part of the club that a lot of people spend all their time causing trouble, and especially on this thread there seems to be an idea, that anyone under 30 is there solely to cause trouble, and that they should sit down and clap. The away support is more vibrant but these young people who do go bring most of the atmosphere to the away games, but hooligans they are not. As others have stated they behaved similarly back in the day, I just think sometimes Barber (probably for good reason) wants us to be as squeaky clean as possible, and over blows some issues.

I think with the sometimes-dreadful home form under potter for many away games became attractive but nothing north of London, if you look on social media (mainly Facebook) there is a huge amount of people complaining about not being able to get tickets for away games, and say the system is unfair. When challenged they often say that they can't be bothered to do Man City, Newcastle etc, but want to go to Fulham and Brentford, I don't really get what complaint they have. My mate who only had a season ticket from last season has built enough points up to go to every game except Brentford and Fulham, as pretty much every game has worked down the loyalty point groups.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Saying that aspects of modern football are not enjoyable does not mean you want to go back to the 70s lol.

Yes, quite.

I was a very small child in the 70s and I think went to one game in that decade. However, in the late 80s / early 90s when I was first of legal drinking age we very often used to go to a home game at the Goldstone. After we'd retire to the Nightingale or Edinburgh, have a quick flick through the programme and see where we were the next week. "Who fancies Barnsley / Sunderland / Port Vale / Oldham next week?" and those that did and still had some wages left over for the trip said "great, see you at the station at (whatever time)". We had young persons railcards and it was British Rail anyway so we could afford the train, no one made us book a particular train in advance, we drank in a pub near the station wherever we were going and pub crawled to the ground where it was PotG.

No Loyalty Points, no assigned seat, no "I'd love to come but it looks like the train is £250 return now" and no game being moved for telly. 3pm on Saturday and I knew where I'd be, who I'd be with and there'd be no stress, hassle or anything. Just a good day on the piss with my mates, normally ruined by Brighton losing.

I appreciate that big media money has now made that all but impossible if you want to follow a successful team, but to yearn for a bit of that is certainly not wanting to turn the clock back 50 years or want to tie a scarf round your wrist and fight skinheads on the terraces. It's just a nostalgic wish for simplicity and for all your friends to be included and new ones to be made.

Which is exactly why many young people are turning to non league football.

 

[Beanstalk]

I just don't think our support has that bad a reputation, I understand the issue with the loyalty points, people can't keep on hoarding them, but as I've stated there has to be a better way to move on tickets when people can't attend. I think he's right to combat this issue, and the issue with people not bothering with away games but passing on tickets to gain point would be solved with an away ticket exchange but the club need to be proactive to sort that. I don't think he should turn a blind eye, but I think he's used a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There seems to be an idea (like some baseless claims about the OP being dishonest) that people are trying to game the system maliciously, there should have been a warning for those caught before starting to hand out ten game bans, and there doesn't actually appear to be any form of appeal which is disappointing.

I think barber is pretty fair, but there seems to be a little bit of an obsession from some part of the club that a lot of people spend all their time causing trouble, and especially on this thread there seems to be an idea, that anyone under 30 is there solely to cause trouble, and that they should sit down and clap. The away support is more vibrant but these young people who do go bring most of the atmosphere to the away games, but hooligans they are not. As others have stated they behaved similarly back in the day, I just think sometimes Barber (probably for good reason) wants us to be as squeaky clean as possible, and over blows some issues.

I think with the sometimes-dreadful home form under potter for many away games became attractive but nothing north of London, if you look on social media (mainly Facebook) there is a huge amount of people complaining about not being able to get tickets for away games, and say the system is unfair. When challenged they often say that they can't be bothered to do Man City, Newcastle etc, but want to go to Fulham and Brentford, I don't really get what complaint they have. My mate who only had a season ticket from last season has built enough points up to go to every game except Brentford and Fulham, as pretty much every game has worked down the loyalty point groups.

I think you're mostly right here Jack, but I do think we have some fairly serious issues with fans who have "found" tickets to away games and are either off their nut or just looking to fight someone. Police had to get involved at Arsenal due to a group of lads who were so out of it, it was ridiculous (one of them didn't realise it was half-time and shouted "push up you c***s" at the subs warming up with no sense of irony). They proceeded to try and fight another Brighton fan who they were convinced supported West Ham (for no given reason) and then abuse a steward who tried to handle the situation. I've got countless examples of this happening in the more attractive fixtures that others can't get a ticket for (as in London and games in the south).

As someone who goes to every game, you have probably been unfairly put into the "check tickets for passing on" bracket that me and my dad haven't (yet to be checked despite attending 3 of the 4 away games since Brentford) as I'm sure a big part of the issue is that there are individuals who buy and sell on every away ticket - I know of at least one who used to do this. It's not particularly fair on you, and I'm hopeful that it is a temporary move to stop passing on of tickets. I think Barber's obsession is less personal and more about wasted staff time dealing with issues that are unsolvable as they can't track down the actual culprit as they didn't buy the ticket and have no relationship with the club. It is costly and gives the club a bad reputation with the authorities and opposition clubs. The punishment is too harsh, and I'd like to see a much more severe loyalty point deduction and no ban (or at least a max of one game) instead.

You're spot on that there needs to be a resale option on away tickets though. Like the exchange where the ticket always remains paid for by someone even if you can't sell it on.

 

[jackalbion]

I think you're mostly right here Jack, but I do think we have some fairly serious issues with fans who have "found" tickets to away games and are either off their nut or just looking to fight someone. Police had to get involved at Arsenal due to a group of lads who were so out of it, it was ridiculous (one of them didn't realise it was half-time and shouted "push up you c***s" at the subs warming up with no sense of irony). They proceeded to try and fight another Brighton fan who they were convinced supported West Ham (for no given reason) and then abuse a steward who tried to handle the situation. I've got countless examples of this happening in the more attractive fixtures that others can't get a ticket for (as in London and games in the south).

As someone who goes to every game, you have probably been unfairly put into the "check tickets for passing on" bracket that me and my dad haven't (yet to be checked despite attending 3 of the 4 away games since Brentford) as I'm sure a big part of the issue is that there are individuals who buy and sell on every away ticket - I know of at least one who used to do this. It's not particularly fair on you, and I'm hopeful that it is a temporary move to stop passing on of tickets. I think Barber's obsession is less personal and more about wasted staff time dealing with issues that are unsolvable as they can't track down the actual culprit as they didn't buy the ticket and have no relationship with the club. It is costly and gives the club a bad reputation with the authorities and opposition clubs. The punishment is too harsh, and I'd like to see a much more severe loyalty point deduction and no ban (or at least a max of one game) instead.

You're spot on that there needs to be a resale option on away tickets though. Like the exchange where the ticket always remains paid for by someone even if you can't sell it on.

We had some dickheads at Arsenal, but I think that was down to the guest tickets, a regular away follower I go with got his teeth knocked out by a coked up nutter. Brentford was pretty well behaved, Fulham there was an issue with some, but it was quite clear that the stewards there lost control of the situation as people with home end tickets were just walking into the away section. I think when you look at the away support that has visited recently we don't have the hooligan problems that clubs like Leeds have.

One thing about the figures related to the tickets not belonging to the right owner was that, previously they sent you 8 tickets in the post for example, and then I would not check the numbers and names match, I would just hand them out at random to the group who I had bought for (all legitmately), so that could have been an issue, as I was probably in on my mates ticket technically as that is what I scanned another of the group had mine, as we were all in a block together. I mainly thought about this as when someone couldn't go, if my loyalty points would be attributed when I had attended but selected the wrong ticket in the batch, although it turns out the points are only attributed when the ticket is scanned is a bit of a myth. So at least now if one of my mates is a dickhead it would be their ticket on them (although saying that I have a tendency to lose my ticket once I get in the ground).

 

[erkan]

I appreciate that big media money has now made that all but impossible if you want to follow a successful team, but to yearn for a bit of that is certainly not wanting to turn the clock back 50 years or want to tie a scarf round your wrist and fight skinheads on the terraces. It's just a nostalgic wish for simplicity and for all your friends to be included and new ones to be made.

Which is exactly why many young people are turning to non league football.

My 15 year old son is doing precisely this in Eastbourne with other similar aged lads from the local schools. Had about 60 of them together behind the goal at The Saffrons for the visit of Egham Town on Saturday afternoon. Almost completely impossible for this group to get into regularly watching the Albion away these days.

 

[jackalbion]

My 15 year old son is doing precisely this in Eastbourne with other similar aged lads from the local schools. Had about 60 of them together behind the goal at The Saffrons for the visit of Egham Town on Saturday afternoon. Almost completely impossible for this group to get into regularly watching the Albion away these days.

This a real shame for the club, if I wasn't lucky and was born in the age where we had no real ticket restrictions, I couldn't have accumulated those points. The biggest victims of the loyalty point system are the younger fans, however, our situation is far far better than a lot of other PL clubs. I do miss it though for example when I go to away games with my friends who support National League clubs, that a load of us can just rock up on the day when we feel like it, but that is the price of success as Scunthorpe and Torquay are about to be relegated to the national league.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Because the getting rid of trouble makers thing is a bit of a facade, it seems to me about proving a point to some people, that they can’t do what they want with away tickets. We have a small amount of trouble makers at Brighton compared to most of the other 92, just some people who support us think that because a 16 year old snuck in a flare, or called the ref the c-word its the second coming of the ICF. It’s about the club exerting their control over the fans, that they control the tickets, there are good and bad things of this policy.

Edit: this was meant to be replying to Joey Joey Shabadoo but seems to have defaulted to a different post, not sure if this is a system error @Bozza as this has happened a couple of times.

You are conflating some issues and ignoring others which, I think, is behind our disagreement on this thread. One issue the club is concerned about is incidents that lead to ejection of fans and/or police involvement. They are not trying to prove any point. Rather (and this is another issue), they are in addition enforcing compliance with both the spirit and the letter of the loyalty points scheme. They are doing this in the interests of people lower down the points levels who might want to move up and understandably would like the opportunity to buy tickets when their points tier opens. If there are no sanctions for buying tickets and selling/passing them on then people will continue to do it. There is some inconvenience involved for anybody affected but that could be you, me or anybody else. Just because you have a lot of points you are not entitled to avoid that inconvenience. If you earn your points within the spirit of the rules then other than that occasional inconvenience it doesn’t affect you. I fully appreciate that you don’t like the new rules but misrepresenting the club’s motives on this with absolutely no evidence is always going to lead to a response.

 

[chaileyjem]

Which is exactly why many young people are turning to non league football.

Attendance at football - at all levels - is historically high in the PL, the EFL and the National League. (and below that - see Worthing, Lewes, Eastbourne etc). Home and Away attendances at the Albion are also historically high and have been remarkably resilient to cost of living pressures. And plenty of fans of the Albion or League Clubs also support non league clubs. I'm sure there are some (but i think its exaggerated) who've turned away from the PL or EFL due to cost, TV, travel or distaste at ££/owners etc but if anything it looks like interest in football at all levels has grown. There's clearly many young fans - i'd argue growing for the ALbion - who will put up with the logistics of getting to Manchester or Leeds or Liverpool for an away game as well as relaxed about thought of iD checks, CCTV, body checks, names on tickets etc. But would love to see some numbers etc.

 

[chaileyjem]

This a real shame for the club, if I wasn't lucky and was born in the age where we had no real ticket restrictions, I couldn't have accumulated those points. The biggest victims of the loyalty point system are the younger fans, however, our situation is far far better than a lot of other PL clubs. I do miss it though for example when I go to away games with my friends who support National League clubs, that a load of us can just rock up on the day when we feel like it, but that is the price of success as Scunthorpe and Torquay are about to be relegated to the national league.

Why are young fans "victims" of the loyalty point system ? I could argue that (some) younger fans, with no families, more disposable income, free weekends have the freedom to have a season ticket and go to multiple away games earning points. Far harder , you could argue for parents, or other fans with responsibilities and weekend/evening commitments to accumulate points. Anyway this is all a bit anecdotal - how do we know ? . I don't see any shortage of kids, twentysomethings at the away games i go to.

 

[erkan]

Attendance at football - at all levels - is historically high in the PL, the EFL and the National League. (and below that - see Worthing, Lewes, Eastbourne etc). Home and Away attendances at the Albion are also historically high and have been remarkably resilient to cost of living pressures. And plenty of fans of the Albion or League Clubs also support non league clubs. I'm sure there are some (but i think its exaggerated) who've turned away from the PL or EFL due to cost, TV, travel or distaste at ££/owners etc but if anything it looks like interest in football at all levels has grown. There's clearly many young fans - i'd argue growing for the ALbion - who will put up with the logistics of getting to Manchester or Leeds or Liverpool for an away game as well as relaxed about thought of iD checks, CCTV, body checks, names on tickets etc. But would love to see some numbers etc.

Obviously more young Albion fans in absolute terms than in the wilderness years and during the aftermath.

Completely different demographic able to attend away matches compared to the late 70s though.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Attendance at football - at all levels - is historically high in the PL, the EFL and the National League. (and below that - see Worthing, Lewes, Eastbourne etc). Home and Away attendances at the Albion are also historically high and have been remarkably resilient to cost of living pressures. And plenty of fans of the Albion or League Clubs also support non league clubs. I'm sure there are some (but i think its exaggerated) who've turned away from the PL or EFL due to cost, TV, travel or distaste at ££/owners etc but if anything it looks like interest in football at all levels has grown. There's clearly many young fans - i'd argue growing for the ALbion - who will put up with the logistics of getting to Manchester or Leeds or Liverpool for an away game as well as relaxed about thought of iD checks, CCTV, body checks, names on tickets etc. But would love to see some numbers etc.

In any line of business growing the market rather than competing for market share is a good thing. However, I was talking specifically about young fans and, actually, though I didn't say it, young noisy ones.

Last season we met a group of Littlehampton lads who were following Littlehampton Town everywhere. When I was 20 or so they would undoubtedly have gone to the Goldstone instead where there was always a big LA contingent in the North Stand. Whitehawk have a noisy group of Ultras. Again, I suspect they would have been Goldstone goers back in the day.

Where the Albion have excelled is in grabbing the share of that bigger market that consists of families with money, many who have moved to Sussex. PB has admitted they are a target in interviews in the past. And that's fine and pays for our amazing team and success as a club. But there is a bit of me that's sad that I see fewer and fewer working class lads from places like Hastings and LA at games these days.

 

[erkan]

Why are young fans "victims" of the loyalty point system ? I could argue that (some) younger fans, with no families, more disposable income, free weekends have the freedom to have a season ticket and go to multiple away games earning points. Far harder , you could argue for parents, or other fans with responsibilities and weekend/evening commitments to accumulate points. Anyway this is all a bit anecdotal - how do we know ? . I don't see any shortage of kids, twentysomethings at the away games i go to.

On something as small scale as an Albion awayday then direct knowledge and experience is all that is needed.

Cost for a 15 year old to go on a Premier League awayday is proportionately astronomical compared to the golden age of teenagers going to football together. That cost is only relevant if they can manage to secure a ticket which is currently impossible for the nearer league games.