[Politics] Brexit

pastafarian · May 28, 2020

Baldseagull said:
Rewind to the start of this little episode, and we get the question "Now remind me, what exactly is this BREXIT ?"

If we rewind a little further, like 4 years or more, I reckon you would have had a much fuller description than " Britain leaves the EU". And when the transition ends, we will know to a much greater extent what Brexit means, but if you agree with Rees-Mogg, it will take 50 years of hindsight to work out whether it was worth it or not.

And there was me thinking Rees-Mogg actually said
The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.

Don’t remember the completely different
it will take 50 years of hindsight to work out whether it was worth it or not.

Did you get your version off twitter?

Baldseagull said:
My point was the absurdity of your question about unlimited immigration to and from different countries in the EU. It is the same as unlimited movement to and from different regions of the UK, it is limited by the work available in a given area.

Movement within your own national borders is really not the same as moving back and forth between countries.

Even if someone was daft enough to say moving between England and Scotland, two regional countries within their own defined national territory is the same as moving between Spain and Romania, Germany and Greece or Poland and Austria, all different countries in the EU, it really isnt the same and they should probably get some help.
They may have been shockingly groomed into thinking the EU is a country in its own right.

Is it PotG? · May 28, 2020

Baldseagull said:
My point was the absurdity of your question about unlimited immigration to and from different countries in the EU. It is the same as unlimited movement to and from different regions of the UK, it is limited by the work available in a given area.

Baldseagull · May 28, 2020

pastafarian said:
And there was me thinking Rees-Mogg actually said
The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.

Don’t remember the completely different
it will take 50 years of hindsight to work out whether it was worth it or not.

Did you get your version off twitter?

You are going to have to learn to understand context, and then you will see why the sentence "The overwhelming opportunity for Brtexit is over the next 50 years" is very much like saying it will take 50 years of hindsight to work out whether it was worth it or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My4UM_zCpk0

Baldseagull · May 28, 2020

pastafarian said:
Movement within your own national borders is really not the same as moving back and forth between countries.

Even if someone was daft enough to say moving between England and Scotland, two regional countries within their own defined national territory is the same as moving between Spain and Romania, Germany and Greece or Poland and Austria, all different countries in the EU, it really isnt the same and they should probably get some help.
They may have been shockingly groomed into thinking the EU is a country in its own right.

The issue was concerning limits, the point is that "limitless immigration" is a fallacy.

pastafarian · May 28, 2020

Baldseagull said:
You are going to have to learn to understand context, and then you will see why the sentence "The overwhelming opportunity for Brtexit is over the next 50 years" is very much like saying it will take 50 years of hindsight to work out whether it was worth it or not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My4UM_zCpk0

Fully aware of the context. I happen to disagree with your interpretation.
It would have been an astonishing admission if your version were true.
The fact Guru-Murthy didnt say WTF and and simply carried on with the interview suggests like other remainers making a meal out of nothing you have simply heard what you wanted to hear.

pastafarian · May 28, 2020

Baldseagull said:
The issue was concerning limits, the point is that "limitless immigration" is a fallacy.

Glad you dont think moving between EU countries is the same as moving between regions in the UK.
That would be a bit bonkers.

Baldseagull · May 28, 2020

Razzoo said:
We are going to have to disagree on this. We are a small Island with a finite infrastructure. There has to be a control on the numbers factored in. I don't believe in zero immigration by any means but it has to be managed carefully. I am the son of an immigrant by the way also I wasn't born in the UK and I am certainly not a racist.

In a fully controlled immigration system, Government sets limits, often by trade or profession. The government therefore needs to know in advance roughly how many Bricklayers, Plumbers, Doctors, Nurses etc the UK is going to need, how many it has already, and how many are going to retire imminently, so it knows where to set the limit, or it could choose to massively over estimate to ensure there is no shortage due to immigration restrictions for which it will be blamed. lets say the Government chooses to play it safe and sets a large number for Doctors, say 2000 and it turns out, we need only 200 new Doctors, how many Doctors do you think will turn up?

pastafarian · May 28, 2020

Baldseagull said:
In a fully controlled immigration system, Government sets limits, often by trade or profession. The government therefore needs to know in advance roughly how many Bricklayers, Plumbers, Doctors, Nurses etc the UK is going to need, how many it has already, and how many are going to retire imminently, so it knows where to set the limit, or it could choose to massively over estimate to ensure there is no shortage due to immigration restrictions for which it will be blamed. lets say the Government chooses to play it safe and sets a large number for Doctors, say 2000 and it turns out, we need only 200 new Doctors, how many Doctors do you think will turn up?

Going by the figures 20 will turn up from abroad

Razzoo · May 28, 2020

Baldseagull said:
In a fully controlled immigration system, Government sets limits, often by trade or profession. The government therefore needs to know in advance roughly how many Bricklayers, Plumbers, Doctors, Nurses etc the UK is going to need, how many it has already, and how many are going to retire imminently, so it knows where to set the limit, or it could choose to massively over estimate to ensure there is no shortage due to immigration restrictions for which it will be blamed. lets say the Government chooses to play it safe and sets a large number for Doctors, say 2000 and it turns out, we need only 200 new Doctors, how many Doctors do you think will turn up?

I know it's not easy getting the balance right but the government must strive to be as accurate as possible. Also we need to invest in our "own" future doctors, plumbers, firefighters etc. If and when possible.

pastafarian · May 29, 2020

Baldseagull said:
In a fully controlled immigration system, Government sets limits, often by trade or profession. The government therefore needs to know in advance roughly how many Bricklayers, Plumbers, Doctors, Nurses etc the UK is going to need, how many it has already, and how many are going to retire imminently, so it knows where to set the limit, or it could choose to massively over estimate to ensure there is no shortage due to immigration restrictions for which it will be blamed. lets say the Government chooses to play it safe and sets a large number for Doctors, say 2000 and it turns out, we need only 200 new Doctors, how many Doctors do you think will turn up?

On reflection i am upping my 20 doctors from abroad to 56 (EU and non EU ) bearing in mind we have more non EU doctors than EU doctors
what do i win

Mo Gosfield · May 29, 2020

Surely you set your immigration targets by the ability of your infrastructure to cope with increased numbers. You have to try and evaluate the quality of life you want your citizens to enjoy. Look at the school/hospital/surgery/prison etc building programme and evaluate accordingly. Talk to transport experts about the annual rise in vehicular movement and its effect on the movement of goods and services and the ability of people to get to work. Rising numbers can only be sustained indefinitely if there is a proportionate increase in the growth of the infrastructure and that is unrealistic and unaffordable.
You cannot make good 20 years of uncontrolled immigration. Roughly 30,000 a year suddenly going to 300,000/500,000 a year ( and more ) No strategy on filling strategic jobs or sectors. Just, a come one come all policy. No effort to curb criminal elements coming in ( all now firmly established in UK ) There has to be controls and limits and without that, you are failing your people.

Baldseagull · May 30, 2020

Mo Gosfield said:
Surely you set your immigration targets by the ability of your infrastructure to cope with increased numbers. You have to try and evaluate the quality of life you want your citizens to enjoy. Look at the school/hospital/surgery/prison etc building programme and evaluate accordingly. Talk to transport experts about the annual rise in vehicular movement and its effect on the movement of goods and services and the ability of people to get to work. Rising numbers can only be sustained indefinitely if there is a proportionate increase in the growth of the infrastructure and that is unrealistic and unaffordable.
You cannot make good 20 years of uncontrolled immigration. Roughly 30,000 a year suddenly going to 300,000/500,000 a year ( and more ) No strategy on filling strategic jobs or sectors. Just, a come one come all policy. No effort to curb criminal elements coming in ( all now firmly established in UK ) There has to be controls and limits and without that, you are failing your people.

I am sorry you see the growth in infrastructure we should have had as unaffordable and unrealistic, I see it as a failure of previous Governments.

sydney · May 30, 2020

Baldseagull said:
I am sorry you see the growth in infrastructure we should have had as unaffordable and unrealistic, I see it as a failure of previous Governments.

i think he's saying that at the yearly intake of migrants in recent years it is virtually impossible to keep services up to an adequate level.

Gwylan · May 30, 2020

Mo Gosfield said:
Surely you set your immigration targets by the ability of your infrastructure to cope with increased numbers. You have to try and evaluate the quality of life you want your citizens to enjoy. Look at the school/hospital/surgery/prison etc building programme and evaluate accordingly. Talk to transport experts about the annual rise in vehicular movement and its effect on the movement of goods and services and the ability of people to get to work. Rising numbers can only be sustained indefinitely if there is a proportionate increase in the growth of the infrastructure and that is unrealistic and unaffordable.
You cannot make good 20 years of uncontrolled immigration. Roughly 30,000 a year suddenly going to 300,000/500,000 a year ( and more ) No strategy on filling strategic jobs or sectors. Just, a come one come all policy. No effort to curb criminal elements coming in ( all now firmly established in UK ) There has to be controls and limits and without that, you are failing your people.

You must hope that the 3m Hong Kong citizens they've just allowed to apply for visas don't all come at once. Although most of the sensible people on here will realise that you have it the wrong way round: an influx of hard-working, entrepreneurial people is exactly the sort of thing that we need to grow our infrastructure. You don't wait for the infrastructure to grow itself, you need an injection of dynamism.

Harry Wilson's tackle · May 30, 2020

Gwylan said:
You must hope that the 3m Hong Kong citizens they've just allowed to apply for visas don't all come at once. Although most of the sensible people on here will realise that you have it the wrong way round: an influx of hard-working, entrepreneurial people is exactly the sort of thing that we need to grow our infrastructure. You don't wait for the infrastructure to grow itself, you need an injection of dynamism.

Indeed.

And our infrastructure (which includes doctors and nurses) is shit because . . . .for example. . . . we can't find enough Drs and nurses to employ in the NHS. We don't train enough (owing to cuts in public spending). We don't import enough, even with '20 years of unrestricted immigration', because not enough want to come here (because we don't pay enough, and we make them pay surcharges to come here, and outside of their workplaces they are treated like dirty foreigners). All part of the tory strategy to undermine the NHS so the middle calsses go private. Not a lot of people appear to know that :shrug:

I should point out (for the millionth time) we have always had control of our borders, and we have always had 100% say on who from outside the EU can visit the UK. If the Conservatives (who have been in charge for the last 10 years) have let in unrestricted numbers of unemployable Pakistani and Arab muslim terrorists, then leaving the EU won't fix the problem. The whole Brexit business for the immigrant-obssessed contingent has been like the man who loses his job and decided the best solution is to kick the dog. To death. :shrug:

The main reason I came on this thread today was to comment that it is now very clear from recent events that we are set for a Hard Brexit at the end of the year. I was hoping Brexit would be put on hold due to Covid. However Boris' decision to connive with Cummings to concoct a tissue of lies to keep Cummings in place is evidence that Cummings will be leading the Brexit charge after all, come what may. He will try to bully the EU into his deal. The EU won't play ball. So hard Brexit it will be.

So watch out now for evidence of visible hard Brexit planning. A hard Brexit, perhaps on the back of a second wave of Covid....it will be interesting to see how enthusiastically the vulnerable, poorly off and old among the contingent who were and still are fervent Brexiteers, will be crowing 'we have taken back control' when December arrives. Only the bitter misanthropic depressives among them, like one or two on here I have on ignore, will still be cheering, I would imagine. Plus people comfortably off (as am I), but with a weird loathing of vast tracts of society who they want to see punished (not me, in case you wonder).

Interesting times.

Right, I am off to dry my eyes because I just can't get over the fact that I have lost, and we have left the EU and I am just bitter that everything isn't all shit like I said it was.

:facepalm:

studio150 · May 30, 2020

Looking like the 'oven ready deal' is in fact 'no deal'

At least we have the world beating track and trace system to celebrate from tomorrow

Pretty pink fairy · May 30, 2020

Barnier begging for a one or two year extension , what a plum ****ing deluded doesn't even cover it
Regards
DF

Lever · May 30, 2020

studio150 said:
Looking like the 'oven ready deal' is in fact 'no deal'

At least we have the world beating track and trace system to celebrate from tomorrow

I suspect it always was......

pastafarian · May 31, 2020

Gwylan said:
You must hope that the 3m Hong Kong citizens they've just allowed to apply for visas don't all come at once. Although most of the sensible people on here will realise that you have it the wrong way round: an influx of hard-working, entrepreneurial people is exactly the sort of thing that we need to grow our infrastructure. You don't wait for the infrastructure to grow itself, you need an injection of dynamism.

Really cant envisage a situation where all 2.9 million will have successful visa applications anyway as British Nationals (overseas) use immigration rules that others have to use to qualify for a 12 month visa, and not everyone qualifies, or even indeed all 2,9 million (40%) of Hong Kong population actually all applying and want to Leave home and other family who don’t want to Leave or are not even British Nationals (overseas).
So no, cant envisage all 2,9 million coming at once.

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
I should point out (for the millionth time) we have always had control of our borders, and we have always had 100% say on who from outside the EU can visit the UK.

Shame we didn’t have the same level of immigration control on those from inside the EU as we did on those from outside the EU.

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
If the Conservatives (who have been in charge for the last 10 years) have let in unrestricted numbers of unemployable Pakistani and Arab muslim terrorists, then leaving the EU won't fix the problem.

How many unemployable Pakistanis and Arab muslim terrorists have the Tories let in over the last 10 years?

studio150 said:
Looking like the 'oven ready deal' is in fact 'no deal'

Lever said:
I suspect it always was......

Excellent example of two people who were unable to follow what was going on.

The “oven ready deal” ie the withdrawal deal has been done, its finished, its history and part of the record. We have withdrawn our membership. Only someone who is completely uninformed would say the trade deal negotiations as part of the future relationship that began after we left membership and not as yet concluded is the " oven ready deal" when it was clearly the withdrawal deal referred to in the run up to it being passed.
Beyond me how you two didn’t know this.

Lever · May 31, 2020

pastafarian said:
Really cant envisage a situation where all 2.9 million will have successful visa applications anyway as British Nationals (overseas) use immigration rules that others have to use to qualify for a 12 month visa, and not everyone qualifies, or even indeed all 2,9 million (40%) of Hong Kong population actually all applying and want to Leave home and other family who don’t want to Leave or are not even British Nationals (overseas).
So no, cant envisage all 2,9 million coming at once.

Shame we didn’t have the same level of immigration control on those from inside the EU as we did on those from outside the EU.

How many unemployable Pakistanis and Arab muslim terrorists have the Tories let in over the last 10 years?

Excellent example of two people who were unable to follow what was going on.

The “oven ready deal” ie the withdrawal deal has been done, its finished, its history and part of the record. We have withdrawn our membership. Only someone who is completely uninformed would say the trade deal negotiations as part of the future relationship that began after we left membership and not as yet concluded is the " oven ready deal" when it was clearly the withdrawal deal referred to in the run up to it being passed.
Beyond me how you two didn’t know this.

...seems quite a lot is beyond you - but pleased to note you have toned down the language. Thanks for that.

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